Experimental Rabbitry Questions

[sinthome]

Oops, you must have replied before I finished editing my post. Corrugated would work well, but the headache of all those little corrugated valleys make it all but impossible to sweep out. I guess another thought would be to somehow cover the corrugation with a small plywood ramp that you could then pull out to clean.. or something.

 

[LPH_NY]

Sinthone, I like the way you think and think your approach has a lot of merit. It's not perfect, as no animal husbandry system truly is. And I think you'll be able to figure out as you go what is going to work for you and your particular rabbits and what needs to be tweaked. That said, I'd urge you to start with only 2 does together. You want to breed them at the same time and that's great. Let's say they both do fantastic and give you 10 kits each. Soon you have 22 rabbits sharing the same living space. I realize you intend to move the growouts at weaning time... but when is that? By 8 weeks they are nearly the size of adult rabbits and have appetites to match (if you're raising meat-type bunnies.) If you move them too early and want them to graze, you put them at risk of weaning enteritis.

If you intend to keep the environment low-maintenance, I think trying to keep your numbers down is going to help you in the long run. Life sometimes gets in the way of maintaining a perfect schedule, and as fast as rabbits grow and hit maturity, a couple weeks of "waiting" to move everybunny because something big has happened in your life (or your other livestock has to take priority) would leave the colony setup overrun if you had more than 2 producing does and their litters, IMO. Also, where is the buck? Is he isolated?

I eventually want to get to a controlled-breeding ground based colony. But I'm nowhere near ready for that. Last year I had my rabbits eating up to 50% forage during summer and they had time on the ground, but were not "living" on the ground and I found out during butchering that we did have cocci in the rabbits. They were lean, slow-growing, not showing symptoms otherwise... but had the characteristic white spots on the livers and even at 16 weeks were not reaching 5 lbs. The last litter we grew out last year had zero time on the ground and I was very selective about what I offered them as forage and they did not have spots.

Unless you have a seriously large plot of land, you can't expect rabbits to get much of their dietary requirements met by grazing on their own. They will devour everything to the ground in short order. I'm sure you know that, and plan to bring most of their food in on a daily basis. But if you are growing and harvesting all of it yourself, that is also time-consuming. I'm not saying it can't be done. Lots of people do it just fine. I'm just reiterating the importance of starting out with a SMALL herd - because those babies just grow up so fast and eat so much.

As far as PVC tunnels... you need to accommodate the girth of a large pregnant doe. I think 8" diameter should be enough, unless you go with giant rabbits. If you have to angle them, they will be very slippery. Maybe you can somehow scratch up the interior to offer traction? Plastic holds condensation a little too well, too... perhaps some holes drilled on the bottom for drainage of condensation? I used very large plastic totes as nestboxes for the first litters and the interiors had built-up frozen condensation on the lids from the bunnies breathing inside them... and on above-freezing days, it melted and dampened their bedding and I had to change it promptly. I would also reconsider the spacious burrow. That's a lot of room that is kind of hard for you to access all at once. If I had your dimensions to work with, I would not try to offer access to that much space "underground" all the time. If you can provide shelter on the outside pen in the winter so that they are not buried in snow when they go outside, you won't need all that extra space inside. It will encourage them to soil the burrow less and make it easier for you to find injured or dead kits. I don't think you'll need a heat lamp, either. You WILL, however, need heated water systems. And those can be messy.

Trying to mimic a natural environment is a wonderful idea in theory. But we tend to forget that wild rabbits live very brief lives, are almost always battling parasites, and are driven to reproduce as fast and as frequently as is possible. We can't give them all the "good" that nature gives them without also dealing with the downsides. You seem to be looking for that middle ground. You have to be diligent in your prevention of parasites and overcrowding if you really want the best out of the colony set up.

 

[sinthome]

Hi, thanks for your thoughtful reply. For some of the details, such as transition to grow-out pens, I recommend Boyd's ebooks, particularly the first two.

Yes, I am definitely only starting with two does, probably in two separate colony burrows and building up each population to a maximum of 4 does per colony from subsequent litters and only doing so cautiously. I am planning to have a maximum of four colonies for a total of 16 does maximum, however I doubt if I will ever want that many breeding at the same time. The buck will be kept separate for controlled breeding, of course. That has always been the plan. The good thing about rabbits is they are quite easy to slaughter and butcher if you find they have exceeded carrying capacity. The first year I don't plan on more than a few litters. Second year, maybe enough to eat rabbit once a week. Then step it up progressively until I feel good about the carrying capacity and labor vs reward ratio. We have a 30 acre property, so I don't expect to run out of room before I run out of labor time.

Yes, the tunnel setup needs to be improved.. pvc is not ideal even if I can find some affordable salvaged pieces. I think the answer might be to dig a trench slightly larger than the outside pipe diameter, stabilize with shoring and drop in a 8" corrugated drain pipe, then cover with easily removable material like wood chips or long pieces of plywood. Then, if it seems like the pipe is getting too soiled or isn't working out for whatever reason, it will be easy enough to remove it. I dunno. Hopefully it won't take too much trial and error before I find something that works!

 

[LPH_NY]

Regarding the threat of coccidiosis and other illnesses...

Here is my opinion, apologies for getting rantish and I know I don't have any practical rabbit experience, yet, but keep in mind that even though I am a novice with rabbit-keeping, these same principles of natural/alternative healthcare have become well-established with other livestock species and have numerous advocates (and books!). I am suspicious of the claim that rabbits are any different in this regard than cows, horses, sheep, goats, pigs, ducks, chickens, etc etc.

There is a very large difference between keeping the animals you listed and keeping rabbits. ALL of those animals can easily be "trained" to come into an enclosed shelter at night, where food and water are provided, and even to birth and rear their young to do the same. Most of those animals can respect a very simplistic fence, can roam over a very large area, foraging at their leisure and NOT grazing to the roots of everything in sight (except pigs), and most of them react appropriately to predators or intruders. Rabbits have to be tightly confined at all times unless you are perfectly willing to accept a large amount of losses to predators or simply running away. When you tuck in your chickens at night, you can count them. (I have chickens and ducks that have no fences to respect most of the time.) You can't let the rabbits out all day and tuck them in at night. It is the ability to "turn out" those animals and then "tuck them in at night" that enables a more relaxed husbandry approach that is harder to mimic for rabbits. The cows, horses, sheep, goats and pigs are all LARGE enough that you can look them over individually from the other side of the barn and pick out unusual or sickly behavior. Ducks and chickens are a little harder, but they tend to all come together at night for the food. They abide by the same daytime schedule. Rabbits have their own schedule. They sleep off and on in bursts day and night. It is harder to pick out individual off-behaviors in a colony setting because they move quickly and don't always have easily identifiable markings. They step on each other while you're trying to count them. If you don't spend time picking them up or petting them every day, then they also flee when you reach for them.

You can have enough to eat rabbit once per week on just a few litters per year, unless you have a lot of mouths to feed. One rabbit here gives our family of 4 two meals if I part it out (and of course if we have side dishes). We put 30+ rabbits in our freezer last year with 5 litters - and two of those litters were small. They ARE easy to butcher IF you are experienced at it and have all the right tools at your disposal. We still have a lot of practicing to do before it becomes efficient for us to dispatch several at one time.

You could use PVC, larger than necessary as the housing or outer sleeve for the slightly smaller corrugated pipe. Then if you have some precut backups, you can pull the inner corrugated out of the sleeve and immediately install the backup while the other one gets cleaned out. That might minimize or eliminate the need for wood chips if you can do it on a regular basis.

 

[Dood]

1) Preventative diet: I am convinced that commercial pelletized feed is unhealthy and often toxic. Even "organic" and even supposedly "GMO-free" pellets are too processed and stale, with little to no phytonutrients or enzymes still intact. Feeding nutrient dense and living food, full of phytonutrients and enzymes and only raw, unprocessed sources of fiber, both contribute directly to the rabbit's health and, even more importantly, these benefits are passed on to their offspring-- both in utero and in the mother's milk and cecotropes.

Several members feed a forage based diet supplemented with hay and whole grains, myself included, but Hepatic Coccidia is a big problem in my grow outs.

Add to this, herbal supplementation with natural coccidiostats and wormers, immune system boosters and I wonder if the common pregnancy complications, kit fatalities and coccidiosis infections wouldn't disappear entirely.

Several members have tried this, Michaels Garden has had great success with using onions and garlic as a natural coccidiostat and I plan to try it this summer. I already feed a lot of high tannin tree branches but it has had minimal effect on coccidia in my rabbitry.

2) Complementing the all-important dietary considerations, I think there are more improvements to be made. Namely, a more natural living environment with better passive ventilation, temperature regulation and free access to socialize with other rabbits will promote better aerobic health, sunlight exposure, and the fatigued immune response that occurs from the stresses of solitary confinement and uncontrollable temperature fluctuations.

Ummm.... not sure where you got this idea but commercial rabbitries and many small breeder rabbit barns are very well temperature controlled and have excellent ventilation so that is not a determining factor in disease.

Some might say their rabbits are less stressed when alone, but I doubt this could be true for a social animal, except for maybe the case of intact bucks, who are probably better kept separately.

again, not sure where your getting your information from - House Rabbit Society perhaps :mrgreen: but compared to other livestock species rabbits are VERY anti-social!!!! I don't need to worry about my cows or pigs taking chunks out of each other or murdering the babies of other females or my chickens, including my roos, fighting to the death. Even my barn cats are more social than my rabbits

Why is this so? Because for the last 80 years rabbits have been bred to survive, tolerate and THRIVE in isolation by society switching from colony raising rabbits to individual cages. Your grand plan may work but it will be rough the first few years to breed that social temperament, and good hygiene habits, back into the modern rabbit.

3) The major consideration that I find lacking in the examples I have read of colony-style rabbit-keeping-- and what I suspect to be a major reason for so many failures with this setup-- is a strict policy of maintaining a "closed" arrangement that limits each colony population to filial genetic lines, i.e. start with one doe or a pair of healthy siblings from the same litter and only increase the colony population by selecting from their young and do not introduce any foreign rabbits to this system at any time. Once the adult rabbits have built up their own probiotics and immunity to disease, they will only rear young that share these traits (passed on genetically and also through milk and cecotropes). Introducing outside rabbits that don't have the same resistances are liable to get sick from the exposure and introduce an additional parasite load to the existing colony, which can have a cascade effect, leading to the "requirement" for antiseptic hygienic practices. But, as long as the closed system isn't disrupted, exposure to feces (such as does marking their territory or kits making a mess) is a lot less dangerous.

I agree that starting with a doe and keeping her daughters is best mainly to minimize fighting and in rabbits inbreeding is not detrimental if you mercilessly cull any less than stellar stock. However, with a limited gene pool there is less to work with to improve traits in your rabbits, currently I am breeding for resistance to Hepatic Coccidia in my rabbits as I noticed that my Mini Lops never caught the disease even though they were getting even more forage than the meat buns I am now starting my second year and 3rd generation of selection and will try them in "rabbit tractors" (Salatin style?) to see how they do when in direct contact with soil contaminated with HC, among other things.

The majority of meat rabbit breeders, and many pet breeders to have 'closed rabbitries' and haven't had new rabbits on their property for YEARS but you cannot completely eliminate all vectors of disease - mice, birds, wild rabbits, predators can all bring in parasites. In my closed rabbitry roots from foraged plants brought in Hepatic coccidia and I suspect mice gave my rabbits ear mites.

In my research on rabbits in colonies and on coccidiosis, I haven't found a single failure that hasn't resulted from either 1) not first establishing the baseline diet outlined above or, 2) after getting the dietary considerations in line, neglecting the other issues addressed above

I'd be curious to read your resources on MODERN colonies that have been successful for more than 5 years.

 

[wamplercathy]

I understand and respect what your trying to do. But it could take a couple decades to see the results you want. You could have great success in year 1 or even year 2, but it could go horribly wrong at the blink of an eye. Also livestock that is put out to pasture use large areas and are able to move away from their droppings. they, unlike rabbits have been breed for herd behavior over a couple hundred years. Rabbits not so much. Wild rabbits move to and from different warrens inside their territory. Using warren A till it's too dirty and then moving to warren B. Once warren B is too dirty they can move back to A. Also wild rabbits are lucky to live a year. I know that wild and domestic rabbits are different but the lifestyle that you're trying to make for them is very much like it is in the wild. Rabbits aren't cute and cuddly. Well they are BUT are also very territorial and aggressive.
How do you plan to counteract the possibility of feral behavior? With my buns they will be handled daily. Dispensing the fearfulness.

I do truly wish you the best of luck.

 

[BoydCravenJr]

These are what my grazers look like that I grow my feeders out in. I have been doing this in the same back yard for years. In the 15 years that we have lived here, nothing has ever been sprayed or spread on the lawn in the form of weed killer or commercial fertilizer. We have wonderful "living" soil here. The north side is bordered by waterfront, the south by our house. East and west are open to lawns that ARE treated, but the slope of the land heads to the water, so I get no runoff from them. I live on Willow Lane, which is named quite aptly. Along the banks of the Linden Mill Pond are many mature willow trees, with roots interlacing the soil quite thickly. Perhaps this has something to do with it, but I NEVER see any sign of coccidiosis of any type when butchering my feeders.

My feeders are timed to be born with the first green growth of the spring here in Michigan, and also with the early crops in my rabbit garden. They are weaned at 5 weeks and go together into one of these grazers, where they live 24/7 until I "need them". I place plastic totes with the lid on and a hole cut in one end inside as shelters or places to hide, or even climb on top of. Daily, in nice weather, I take my breeders out into an exercise grazer that I call "day grazers". They have no top, no bottom, just fenced walls of 1/2"x 1/2" welded wire, so they can only be in there while I'm present.

The point of telling you this, is to help you understand that I have in fact been preparing for this doe colony experiment for years, with my lines. I'll let you all know what I find, good or bad, but I'm less concerned with cocci here than with behavior issues. I have been routinely removing the young bucks before they get to the age of wanting to fight or hump everything that moves, and eating them all along. The does I let grow longer for my canning stash. They accept another freshly weaned mixed sex litter with no issues, as where the bucks would not. Eventually those little bucks are removed along with the larger does and they all go into jars, leaving the smaller does to be the "big kids" when another freshly weaned litter is introduced.

So goes the dance, all garden/ lawn season until my 10 dozen pint jar stash of boneless rabbit is replenished for the upcoming fall/ winter. I only breed in the spring/ summer while the weather is nice and the feed is free.

-- Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:43 pm --

It is my personal sentiment that modern "antiseptic" rabbit-keeping has it backwards. Creating an antiseptic environment, regardless of how far removed the rabbits are from the soil or other vectors of contagion, is counter-productive and self-perpetuating (another example of this issue is the well-documented overuse of "antibacterial" hand soap). The better option is to focus on improving the rabbit's dietary health and providing adequate sun and exercise. In my opinion, it is the germophobic antiseptic practices (which can never be antiseptic enough to remove all risk of exposure) coupled with cramped, solitary confinement and low quality feed that leads to acute infections. Instead, a natural level of exposure plus a healthy immune system is a superior approach. This isn't an apology for lazy rabbit-keeping, rather it involves a HIGHER degree of management, but prioritizing completely different things than the conventional method.

I tend to agree with Sinthome on this subject in theory, and the purpose of my experiment is to either prove or disprove said theory. That said; I am very optimistic! I own a large meat rabbit group myself of over 21,000 members, and I see more reports of cocci and weaning enteritis from folks with rabbits in hanging wire cages than anywhere else. In all fairness though, there ARE more rabbits in hanging wire cages than there are on the ground of recent history, simply because that's what all the books say one must do. I'm out to change that paradigm.

 

[Dood]

I'm glad you've has sucess with tractoring rabbits, I know there are rabbits out there with better resistance to disease - my Mini Lops were a pleasant surprise but not big enough -yet - to be my only source of rabbit meat.

Quite a few members have tried colonies and/or tractors but most have ended up returning to cages for temperament, disease and predator problems

I am curious how often do you move the tractors?

How long do you wait before putting rabbits back on previously grazed areas?

My pastures also have horses, cows and pigs so definely not golf course grade and only a few areas would be level enough to prevent escapees from a tractor and I worry I will run out of areas for them to graze if I cannot reuse spots within the same year.

 

[wamplercathy]

These are what my grazers look like that I grow my feeders out in. I have been doing this in the same back yard for years. In the 15 years that we have lived here, nothing has ever been sprayed or spread on the lawn in the form of weed killer or commercial fertilizer. We have wonderful "living" soil here. The north side is bordered by waterfront, the south by our house. East and west are open to lawns that ARE treated, but the slope of the land heads to the water, so I get no runoff from them. I live on Willow Lane, which is named quite aptly. Along the banks of the Linden Mill Pond are many mature willow trees, with roots interlacing the soil quite thickly. Perhaps this has something to do with it, but I NEVER see any sign of coccidiosis of any type when butchering my feeders.

My feeders are timed to be born with the first green growth of the spring here in Michigan, and also with the early crops in my rabbit garden. They are weaned at 5 weeks and go together into one of these grazers, where they live 24/7 until I "need them". I place plastic totes with the lid on and a hole cut in one end inside as shelters or places to hide, or even climb on top of. Daily, in nice weather, I take my breeders out into an exercise grazer that I call "day grazers". They have no top, no bottom, just fenced walls of 1/2"x 1/2" welded wire, so they can only be in there while I'm present.

The point of telling you this, is to help you understand that I have in fact been preparing for this doe colony experiment for years, with my lines. I'll let you all know what I find, good or bad, but I'm less concerned with cocci here than with behavior issues. I have been routinely removing the young bucks before they get to the age of wanting to fight or hump everything that moves, and eating them all along. The does I let grow longer for my canning stash. They accept another freshly weaned mixed sex litter with no issues, as where the bucks would not. Eventually those little bucks are removed along with the larger does and they all go into jars, leaving the smaller does to be the "big kids" when another freshly weaned litter is introduced.

So goes the dance, all garden/ lawn season until my 10 dozen pint jar stash of boneless rabbit is replenished for the upcoming fall/ winter. I only breed in the spring/ summer while the weather is nice and the feed is free.

-- Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:43 pm --

It is my personal sentiment that modern "antiseptic" rabbit-keeping has it backwards. Creating an antiseptic environment, regardless of how far removed the rabbits are from the soil or other vectors of contagion, is counter-productive and self-perpetuating (another example of this issue is the well-documented overuse of "antibacterial" hand soap). The better option is to focus on improving the rabbit's dietary health and providing adequate sun and exercise. In my opinion, it is the germophobic antiseptic practices (which can never be antiseptic enough to remove all risk of exposure) coupled with cramped, solitary confinement and low quality feed that leads to acute infections. Instead, a natural level of exposure plus a healthy immune system is a superior approach. This isn't an apology for lazy rabbit-keeping, rather it involves a HIGHER degree of management, but prioritizing completely different things than the conventional method.

I tend to agree with Sinthome on this subject in theory, and the purpose of my experiment is to either prove or disprove said theory. That said; I am very optimistic! I own a large meat rabbit group myself of over 21,000 members, and I see more reports of cocci and weaning enteritis from folks with rabbits in hanging wire cages than anywhere else. In all fairness though, there ARE more rabbits in hanging wire cages than there are on the ground of recent history, simply because that's what all the books say one must do. I'm out to change that paradigm.

This a movable rabbit habitat not an in place one with underground warrens. The animals can be moved so over grazing and excess fecal deposits are not an issue. It is my understanding that Sinthome is trying for the latter. If a person is committed to it then they would need at the minimum 2 warrens for each herd. 1 to live in and the 2nd to rest and then rotate. Much like a farmer would rotate their grazing pasture. I have been doing my research and I have weighted the pros and cons of the rabbittry that Sinthome is going for. It is very costly, time commitment is huge, and in the end the results are not guarantied. So IF you have the money to blow and have the whole day to put towards your rabbits then YES it can be a match made in heaven. But for the average person it is unreasonable. And that doesn't take into account of NEIGHBORS. All you have to do is ask the people here on RT to share the horror stories. I live in the country and don't see this being a problem for me. But if you live in town, small or large, it can be a huge issue. If you have never had these issues then count yourself very lucky.

I, as well as the others, just want to help. I have no idea how much experience Sinthome has with rabbits. But with any adventure you should always start small. I'm just starting out myself. My total cost for start-up is right at $500. If things go wrong I'm only out $500, and part of that can be re-cooped. But if your start-up cost is well over that it makes it very hard to swallow the loss.

 

[sinthome]

Hey, just getting back to reading this thread again. Thanks so much everyone for your thoughtful comments, they have really given me some insights. I am not fully discouraged by the (constructive) nay saying, but maybe a little sobered. I particularly like the idea of rotating warrens and resting them. I am not sure if the rabbit-to-greenhouse design is worth the complications. I am evaluating cogeneration compost power designs as a better alternative for passively supplying the greenhouse with heat and CO2. I am still planning on following through with the underground connected burrow rabbitry but probably in its own area closer to the chicken barn. I don't have much additional to say at the moment, but I will report back once I get my project going (not for a while, still) and let y'all know how it is coming along. I really appreciate the conversation!