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OK, thanks skysthelimit! I've always thought that you shouldn't inbreed... until now.

Edit:
I forgot to ask... is there a limit on how many times you can inbreed? I wouldn't expect there to be, but just to be on the safe side, I'd like some opinions on that.
 
WildWolf":27e58srp said:
OK, thanks skysthelimit! I've always thought that you shouldn't inbreed... until now.

Edit:
I forgot to ask... is there a limit on how many times you can inbreed? I wouldn't expect there to be, but just to be on the safe side, I'd like some opinions on that.


I have never gone past three generations, but I think I might go further this year. So far, my plan is following the chart.
 
As long as the offspring are healthy and exhibit no problems like bad teeth etc. you don't need to worry. One study bred brother to sister for 17 generations before encountering any problems. Of course, if a problem did pop up, you would look for some unrelated stock. It is also better to breed daughter to sire and son to mother rather than brother to sister.
 
MaggieJ":h6fmaqcg said:
As long as the offspring are healthy and exhibit no problems like bad teeth etc. you don't need to worry. One study bred brother to sister for 17 generations before encountering any problems. Of course, if a problem did pop up, you would look for some unrelated stock. It is also better to breed daughter to sire and son to mother rather than brother to sister.


Wow.

But given some thought, that is how most purebred dogs were developed. The lines are pretty tight. All german shepherds with pedigrees trace back to one dog, one breeding pair. So no gsd is truly unrelated.
 
Line breeding and inbreeding are how all breeds of domestic animals were created... and often it was because they had a unique mutation. Long legs, short legs, floppy ears, no tail, etc. If you read about the Russian Fox Experiment, all of these bizarre traits are somehow linked to tame-ability.

When the traits showed up, people bred those animals together, thereby increasing the number of young that showed those traits.

Dogs bred solely for their appearance is a fairly recent approach though- before the kennel clubs came into existence, dogs were bred primarily for their abilities, and their conformation was secondary.
 
MamaSheepdog":34jme1m7 said:
Line breeding and inbreeding are how all breeds of domestic animals were created... and often it was because they had a unique mutation. Long legs, short legs, floppy ears, no tail, etc. If you read about the Russian Fox Experiment, all of these bizarre traits are somehow linked to tame-ability.

When the traits showed up, people bred those animals together, thereby increasing the number of young that showed those traits.

Dogs bred solely for their appearance is a fairly recent approach though- before the kennel clubs came into existence, dogs were bred primarily for their abilities, and their conformation was secondary.


And we see what breeding for appearance has done for their temperament. Through the fox experiment we see what breeding for temperament has done to their appearance. It seems that breeding for rabbits appearance has made them more tame.
 
I guess because humans never inbreed, I never thought that animals could inbreed with good results. Now that you think about it, every pet is inbred!
 
WildWolf":2huuw4pq said:
I guess because humans never inbreed, I never thought that animals could inbreed with good results.


Technically that is not true. Think of the many cultures that practiced marrying cousins, great cousins and sometimes half brothers and sisters, to keep the bloodline pure. Especially in royal families, or nations where descendents can be traced back to one or two family lines. According to the finding your roots show on PBS, all Jewish families can be traced back to 4 matriarchal lines.
As an african american, with the limited amount of africans brought to this country, which is still a limited gene pool, I am sure that a DNA test would prove that most of us are more than likely related in some way. That is probably true for many ethnic groups, at some point in history. That's how you create a "race."
 
skysthelimit":2kvai7zp said:
WildWolf":2kvai7zp said:
I guess because humans never inbreed, I never thought that animals could inbreed with good results.


Technically that is not true. Think of the many cultures that practiced marrying cousins, great cousins and sometimes half brothers and sisters, to keep the bloodline pure. Especially in royal families, or nations where descendents can be traced back to one or two family lines. According to the finding your roots show on PBS, all Jewish families can be traced back to 4 matriarchal lines.
As an african american, with the limited amount of africans brought to this country, which is still a limited gene pool, I am sure that a DNA test would prove that most of us are more than likely related in some way. That is probably true for many ethnic groups, at some point in history. That's how you create a "race."

Oh yeah... wow, I seem to be a little narrow minded- I guess because in today's US culture, there is no inbreeding with humans.
 
Actually many states allow for cousins to marry. Just sayin'. ;) I find it ridiculous that people oppose, say...gay marriage, but in several states you can marry your cousin. :p

This is a sad yet amusing map of where you can marry your cousin or your same sex partner, whatever floats your boat. http://mgcomplaints.com/wp-content/uplo ... s-2011.jpg

Notice how many states still allow it! Just nobody ever talks about it, lol.

If I recall properly (and I might be off, apologies if I am) humans went through an evolutionary "bottleneck" at one point, so the entire species descends from less than 50,000 individuals. :)

Cheetahs had it worse...their whole species descends from three individuals, a mother and two male cubs. :p Every cheetah alive is so genetically similar to every other cheetah it isn't even funny. Genetically they are all "identical twins."

All Taki (also known as Mongolian Wild Horses) descend from just nine individuals...the species was nearly extinct in captivity and was TOTALLY extinct in the wild, they've since recovered and have been released back into the wild, their species is now thriving. :D

The reason inbreeding/linebreeding is "bad" is because it will enhance everything due to limited genetic variability. If you want a good trait to be more prevalent, linebreed. However if there are latent negative traits, they will also become more prevalent. With human inbreeding it doesn't take many generations to constrict the genetic variability to where it isn't viable. My mother and father were unlucky, while not related they had the same recessive genetics to have very flawed children...their first two children were born without lung alveoli, meaning they could not make oxygen exchange, and they suffocated moments after birth. In their case it was a very unlucky coincidence, but it has relevancy on inbreeding in humans...inbreed too often and that rare recessive trait for rapid-death-at-birth becomes a LOT less rare.

HOWEVER, when practiced by people who are breeding animals and done very, very responsibly, it is totally harmless...and if done right with a strong rule of culling, can lead to nearly perfect specimens. :)<br /><br />__________ Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:06 pm __________<br /><br />Oh man, I was WAY off!!! The bottleneck for the human species was a lot tighter than I remember.

Humans
The Toba catastrophe theory suggests that a bottleneck of the human population occurred c. 70,000 years ago, proposing that the human population was reduced to perhaps 15,000 individuals[3] when the Toba supervolcano in Indonesia erupted and triggered a major environmental change. The theory is based on geological evidences of sudden climate change and on coalescence evidences of some genes (including mitochondrial DNA, Y-chromosome and some nuclear genes)[4] and the relatively low level of genetic variation with humans.[3]
However, such coalescence is genetically expected and does not, in itself, indicate a population bottleneck, because mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome DNA are only a small part of the entire genome, and are atypical in that they are inherited exclusively through the mother or through the father, respectively. Most genes in the genome are inherited from either father or mother, and thus can be traced back in time via either matrilineal or patrilineal ancestry.[5] Research on many genes finds different coalescence points from 2 million years ago to 60,000 years ago when different genes are considered, thus disproving the existence of more recent extreme bottlenecks (i.e., a single breeding pair).[3][6]
On the other hand, in 2000, a Molecular Biology and Evolution paper suggested a transplanting model or a 'long bottleneck' to account for the limited genetic variation, rather than a catastrophic environmental change.[7] This would be consistent with suggestions that in sub-Saharan Africa numbers could have dropped at times as low as 2,000, for perhaps as long as 100,000 years, before numbers began to expand again in the Late Stone Age.[8]

From the wikipedia on genetic bottlenecks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population ... eck#Humans
 
Kyle@theHeathertoft":1h2ilpke said:
Cheetahs had it worse...their whole species descends from three individuals, a mother and two male cubs. :p Every cheetah alive is so genetically similar to every other cheetah it isn't even funny. Genetically they are all "identical twins."

All Taki (also known as Mongolian Wild Horses) descend from just nine individuals...the species was nearly extinct in captivity and was TOTALLY extinct in the wild, they've since recovered and have been released back into the wild, their species is now thriving. :D

The reason inbreeding/linebreeding is "bad" is because it will enhance everything due to limited genetic variability. If you want a good trait to be more prevalent, linebreed. However if there are latent negative traits, they will also become more prevalent. With human inbreeding it doesn't take many generations to constrict the genetic variability to where it isn't viable.

HOWEVER, when practiced by people who are breeding animals and done very, very responsibly, it is totally harmless...and if done right with a strong rule of culling, can lead to nearly perfect specimens. :)


Oh man, I was WAY off!!! The bottleneck for the human species was a lot tighter than I remember.

Humans
The Toba catastrophe theory suggests that a bottleneck of the human population occurred c. 70,000 years ago, proposing that the human population was reduced to perhaps 15,000 individuals[3]

From the wikipedia on genetic bottlenecks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population ... eck#Humans

That's about what I though. It seems that the bigger and more intelligent (social development) the animal, the sooner the degradation , and all the more noticeable. Much more noticeable in people than dogs, dogs than rabbits.
 
That's about what I though. It seems that the bigger and more intelligent (social development) the animal, the sooner the degradation , and all the more noticeable. Much more noticeable in people than dogs, dogs than rabbits.

Exactly. :)
 
Another case of this is the Syrian (teddy bear) hamster all of the ones in the pet trade are decended from just two individuals that were captured.
 
LindseysWoolies":2juaj1qs said:
Another case of this is the Syrian (teddy bear) hamster all of the ones in the pet trade are decended from just two individuals that were captured.


Wow. how are their temperaments?
 
Let me put it this way: when I worked in a pet store, I categorically refused to touch any hamsters...they don't always bite but they do so often enough to concern, and when they do it HURTS.

I'll take a questionably-tempered Rottweiler over a hamster. :x
 
WildWolf":1v2vkeke said:
I guess because humans never inbreed, I never thought that animals could inbreed with good results. Now that you think about it, every pet is inbred!

Every island population in the world is inbred to some extent, for that matter, any isolated population whether isolated by geography or culture. It's why we look at people and say "you're from place X" and why some cultures have certain diseases like cystic fibrosis to a greater degree than others.
 
3mina":132yakum said:
WildWolf":132yakum said:
I guess because humans never inbreed, I never thought that animals could inbreed with good results. Now that you think about it, every pet is inbred!

Every island population in the world is inbred to some extent, for that matter, any isolated population whether isolated by geography or culture. It's why we look at people and say "you're from place X" and why some cultures have certain diseases like cystic fibrosis to a greater degree than others.

Yeah, I guess that's how races came about. It's just that humans inbred to a lesser degree- I suppose that's because, like skysthelimit said, the degradation is quicker and more obvious. And, as Kyle@theHeathertoft said, "With human inbreeding it doesn't take many generations to constrict the genetic variability to where it isn't viable." Whereas in rabbits, I'm guessing it takes a lot of generations before the genetic variability isn't viable. Does anyone know just how many generations it takes (for rabbits) before the variability isn't viable?
 
WildWolf":tuz89iqm said:
Whereas in rabbits, I'm guessing it takes a lot of generations before the genetic variability isn't viable. Does anyone know just how many generations it takes (for rabbits) before the variability isn't viable?

One of the Yahoo groups had an individual who stated he had done Brother/Sister for 30 generations... and by selecting for vigor and health had good strong rabbits.
IIRC... he Did state around 10-15 generations there were a few issues... but again by selecting for specific traits they kept going and improved.
 
Random Rabbit":2crd2sdf said:
WildWolf":2crd2sdf said:
Whereas in rabbits, I'm guessing it takes a lot of generations before the genetic variability isn't viable. Does anyone know just how many generations it takes (for rabbits) before the variability isn't viable?

One of the Yahoo groups had an individual who stated he had done Brother/Sister for 30 generations... and by selecting for vigor and health had good strong rabbits.
IIRC... he Did state around 10-15 generations there were a few issues... but again by selecting for specific traits they kept going and improved.


Wow. I need to do some more research. The first time I saw was 8, then I think ladysown said 17 and now 30! This is very good news for me, because Rex are in short supply here. At some point I was going to have to start doubling up, because I can't keep enough bucks to avoid some type of inbreeding. Of course I will cull hard...
 
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