Ear mites please help

[Alaska Satin]

If the general population could think critically, ivermectin is an excellent and safe parasitic, but that does not make it a safe and effective antiviral. My uncle believed the hype, decided since the media demonized it it was safe to treat his complicated covid case. Sadly, since he chose that treatment over targeted treatment, he did pass away from covid complications. Not from ivermectin use. But because he did not take the recomme ded antivirals believing the iver would save him.

We have to be able to make these distinctions. I only share in hopes it might help someone.

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. So many people suffered so badly (and are still suffering) as a result of the extended insanity felt the world over during the last three years. I lost both friends and family members, though not to the virus itself.

But to be clear, ivermectin has actually been shown over the last decade to be an effective antiviral. In vitro and/or in vivo trials have indicated that it combats yellow fever virus, Japanese encephalitis virus, tick-borne encephalitis virus, dengue virus, West Nile virus, Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus, and the DNA virus pseudorabies virus:

• Mastrangelo E. et al. Ivermectin is a potent inhibitor of flavivirus replication specifically targeting NS3 helicase activity: new prospects for an old drug. J. Antimicrob. Chemother. 2012; 67: 1884-1894
• Wagstaff K.M. et al. Ivermectin is a specific inhibitor of importin α/β-mediated nuclear import able to inhibit replication of HIV-1 and dengue virus. Biochem. J. 2012; 443: 851-856
• Lundberg L. et al. Nuclear import and export inhibitors alter capsid protein distribution in mammalian cells and reduce Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus replication. Antivir. Res. 2013; 100: 662-672
• Lv C. et al. Ivermectin inhibits DNA polymerase UL42 of pseudorabies virus entrance into the nucleus and proliferation of the virus in vitro and in vivo. Antivir. Res. 2018; 159: 55-62

Many of the papers listed above used doses far about "therapeutic" levels, so it's not like you could necessarily treat for nematodes and kill West Nile virus at the same time. And there are, of course, many organisms it does not address, including for instance the Zika virus (Ketkar H. et al. Lack of efficacy of ivermectin for prevention of a lethal Zika virus infection in a murine system. Diagn. Microbiol. Infect. Dis. 2019; 95: 38-40).

Yes, we need to think critically, but if we don't have facts or trustworthy evidence, that's nearly impossible to do. Unfortunately, given the spin on both sides, it's difficult to fund, perform, publish, or even recognize valid studies on the subject of ivermectin and coronaviruses, so it's pretty hard to confidently say what it does for COVID-19. Many of us have seen multiple cases of anecdotal evidence that ivermectin is effective in treating the SARS-CoV-2 virus. That doesn't mean it's appropriate for all cases, or that it can be used as a single treatment (which is not generally recommended anyway), and complicated cases are all the more difficult. But some of the COVID-19 treatments recommended by medical authorities actually ended up damaging or killing patients (Remdesivir and ventilators, for example), so retaining ivermectin as a possibility in an array of treatment options makes sense to a lot of us.

I wish that the wider scientific and medical community was as open to critical discussion as the folks on this forum!

 

[Scooter1A]

The relationship between parasites and hosts is kind of an arms race. For every way an organism finds to rebuff a parasite, the parasite seems to be able, eventually, to find a way around it. Those types of organisms have found ways to survive just about every chemical and mechanical attack, even to physical dismemberment (chop up some worms, you get more). As a matter of fact, while ivermectin is an astonishingly effective antihelminth, insecticide and anti-viral, and even seems to be useful in fighting cancer, resistance to the drug is already being seen in a group of parasitic nematodes (Martin, Robertson and Choudhary, 2020, see link below). Thus, increasing parasitic resistance to this wonder drug is a serious concern.

The going thought is that ivermectin binds to glutamate-gated chloride channels in the cells of nematodes and insects; it basically holds these channels open, allowing a chloride ion influx which causes hyperpolarization of the cell. So, changes in the chemistry or cell wall physiology in parasitic nematodes or insects, for instance, could make the parasites resistant to ivermectin. Parasitologists studying this concluded that, "A few amino acid changes in the sequence of any of the subunits may alter the ivermectin sensitivity of the channel significantly." (see link)

Since these types of changes historically appear to be the result of "random" mutations, there is no saying when or where such a mutation might occur. It may never happen, or it might take a long time... or it might not take long at all. The problem with taking any drug prophylactically or often, especially one with such a wide range of action on so many species, is that you are exposing a wide range of species (nearly everything in your body, as ivermectin even crosses the blood-brain barrier) to repeated doses of the drug, whether they are the target of your therapy or not. When any of them live through your dosing - which was perhaps an effective dose for the parasite you were targeting, but an ineffective dose for other parasites lurking in your tissues - you run the risk of those survivors going on to produce an entire line of survivors, aka a resistant line, without ever being aware that's what's happening, until you or someone else develops a clinically relevant overpopulation of that newly-resistant organism.

Here is an excellent review paper by Martin, Robertson and Choudhary about ivermectin, its actions and areas of resistance, from which I've drawn the data, quotes and some of the conclusions noted above:
https://www.cell.com/trends/parasit...m/retrieve/pii/S1471492220302907?showall=true
As far as saftey, I agree that it is very safe; therapeutic doses run the range of 150 to 200 μg/kg to ruminants, pigs, horses, or humans. Contrast that with the doses necessary to induce toxicity in monkeys (24 000 μg/kg) and in beagles (80 000 μg/kg).

There is interesting and reassuring information about human toxicity from INCHEM.org, (WHO’s website for “Internationally Peer Reviewed Chemical Safety Information”)- INCHEM.org Section 7.2.1 Human Data.
According to that publication, the margin of error for invermectin overdose reported in mammals is quite large, even in collies, which are known to be sensitive:
Section 7.2.2 Collie dogs have been shown to be more sensitive than other dogs to the toxic effects of ivermectin. Depression, tremors, mydriasis, ataxia, coma and death have been seen in Collie dogs at 100 ðg/kg orally and greater, but not at the recommended dose of the commercial product (6 ðg/kg) (Campbell & Benz, 1984).
(Another collie study of injectable ivermectin found that they can suffer from normal therapeutic doses of 200-250 microg/kg given via injection, see Ivermectin toxicity in 17 collies - PubMed.)

a vet killed my collie dog worming her, after I told him not to. she died with a high fever. if i ever had a collie again i would probably never worm it with anything. great dogs but they have their problems.

 

[Scooter1A]

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. So many people suffered so badly (and are still suffering) as a result of the extended insanity felt the world over during the last three years. I lost both friends and family members, though not to the virus itself.

But to be clear, ivermectin has actually been shown over the last decade to be an effective antiviral. In vitro and/or in vivo trials have indicated that it combats yellow fever virus, Japanese encephalitis virus, tick-borne encephalitis virus, dengue virus, West Nile virus, Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus, and the DNA virus pseudorabies virus:

• Mastrangelo E. et al. Ivermectin is a potent inhibitor of flavivirus replication specifically targeting NS3 helicase activity: new prospects for an old drug. J. Antimicrob. Chemother. 2012; 67: 1884-1894
• Wagstaff K.M. et al. Ivermectin is a specific inhibitor of importin α/β-mediated nuclear import able to inhibit replication of HIV-1 and dengue virus. Biochem. J. 2012; 443: 851-856
• Lundberg L. et al. Nuclear import and export inhibitors alter capsid protein distribution in mammalian cells and reduce Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus replication. Antivir. Res. 2013; 100: 662-672
• Lv C. et al. Ivermectin inhibits DNA polymerase UL42 of pseudorabies virus entrance into the nucleus and proliferation of the virus in vitro and in vivo. Antivir. Res. 2018; 159: 55-62

Many of the papers listed above used doses far about "therapeutic" levels, so it's not like you could necessarily treat for nematodes and kill West Nile virus at the same time. And there are, of course, many organisms it does not address, including for instance the Zika virus (Ketkar H. et al. Lack of efficacy of ivermectin for prevention of a lethal Zika virus infection in a murine system. Diagn. Microbiol. Infect. Dis. 2019; 95: 38-40).

Yes, we need to think critically, but if we don't have facts or trustworthy evidence, that's nearly impossible to do. Unfortunately, given the spin on both sides, it's difficult to fund, perform, publish, or even recognize valid studies on the subject of ivermectin and coronaviruses, so it's pretty hard to confidently say what it does for COVID-19. Many of us have seen multiple cases of anecdotal evidence that ivermectin is effective in treating the SARS-CoV-2 virus. That doesn't mean it's appropriate for all cases, or that it can be used as a single treatment (which is not generally recommended anyway), and complicated cases are all the more difficult. But some of the COVID-19 treatments recommended by medical authorities actually ended up damaging or killing patients (Remdesivir and ventilators, for example), so retaining ivermectin as a possibility in an array of treatment options makes sense to a lot of us.

I wish that the wider scientific and medical community was as open to critical discussion as the folks on this forum!

our doctors here in central illinois differed on the whole covid bs treatment. the ones who saved people gave them ivermectin, steroids, antibiotics all at once. i would never trust the WHO for any info ever again.

 

[elad352]

in past when I raised rabbits I added vinegar to water seemed effective. any one else?

 

[Scooter1A]

in past when I raised rabbits I added vinegar to water seemed effective. any one else?

i haven't but have in chickens. Don't see that it could hurt unless they won't drink it.

 

[Rabbits by Accident]

a vet killed my collie dog worming her, after I told him not to. she died with a high fever. if i ever had a collie again i would probably never worm it with anything. great dogs but they have their problems.

Dogs with border collie lineage cannot take ivermectin. I don't know if that's the kind of Collies you had.

 

[Julie Stade]

Dogs with border collie lineage cannot take ivermectin. I don't know if that's the kind of Collies you had.

Border collies only have about a 5% likelihood of carrying the MDR1 gene. It's far more common in Aussies (about 50%) and regular Collies (about 70%). Unfortunately, the gene exists in a ton of other breeds too from Shelties to German shepherds. It's one of the problem genes tested for on an Embark DNA panel, so at least it's fairly straightforward to find out if one's dog is at risk. Drug sensitivity: MDR1

 

[eco2pia]

My vet used to say "white feet, don't treat" as collie genes usually express in mutts with at least some white toes. I suspect this is an excess of caution statistically, but if it is your pet that is impacted it doesn't really matter what the probability is. The test may be prohibitively expensive for some people, so I offer this rhyme for the diy vet med folks out there.

If I recall correctly, there is also some probability of the same sensitivity in rabbits with vienna marking?

 

[Alaska Satin]

My vet used to say "white feet, don't treat" as collie genes usually express in mutts with at least some white toes. I suspect this is an excess of caution statistically, but if it is your pet that is impacted it doesn't really matter what the probability is. The test may be prohibitively expensive for some people, so I offer this rhyme for the diy vet med folks out there.

If I recall correctly, there is also some probability of the same sensitivity in rabbits with vienna marking?

The vienna connection is interesting to me - would you be able to provide any references? I can't find anything on the net, and no longer have full access to academic journals.

We have raised BEW Polish for years now, but as previously posted, I use ivermectin pretty sparingly. I don't have any record of giving any of the Polish ivermectin at all, though most of them were my daughter's and she is not as retentive about record-keeping as I am... yet.

 

[eco2pia]

The vienna connection is interesting to me - would you be able to provide any references? I can't find anything on the net, and no longer have full access to academic journals.

We have raised BEW Polish for years now, but as previously posted, I use ivermectin pretty sparingly. I don't have any record of giving any of the Polish ivermectin at all, though most of them were my daughter's and she is not as retentive about record-keeping as I am... yet.

I think all my ivermectin/vienna marked info came from rabbit talk more than 5 years ago...I will see if I can find the posts? I filed it in my brain as a possible rabbit correlate to the collie MDR1 connection, but I did not have any BEW/VM rabbits so I did not follow up...

 

[eco2pia]

so far I have found only anecdotal evidence of ivermectin sensitivity in rabbits (outside of various discussions on RT).

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Anti_parasitics/Ivermec.htmhttps://web.archive.org/web/20150509052728/obsidianrabbitry.webs.com/health.htm

 

[hotzcatz]

If Ivermectin would wipe out rabbits with the Vienna gene, that'd go a long way towards eradicating it from the herd! However, the Vienna gene is in the herd and they get Ivermectin and nobunny has expired from Ivermectin use. But, that's just here, haven't done a study on it.

 

[Alaska Satin]

If Ivermectin would wipe out rabbits with the Vienna gene, that'd go a long way towards eradicating it from the herd! However, the Vienna gene is in the herd and they get Ivermectin and nobunny has expired from Ivermectin use. But, that's just here, haven't done a study on it.

An ivermectin sensitivity will not necessarily wipe out rabbits carrying the gene that results in them being sensitive; in fact that would be unlikely.

For example, in collies, which have been pretty extensively studied in this regard, there is a wide range of ivermectin toxicity effects ranging from coma and death, to less severe illness with full recovery, to no clinical signs of toxicosis at all, depending on the dog, the dosage, and the delivery method.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11822811/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3592367/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1917657/

 

[Scooter1A]

I'm jumping in here. My doe is rolling and has been for 2 months. I used drops of 1% injectable ivermectin on her neck once and she seemed to get better. I did that again this morning. I'm going to use SafeGuard today but wondering how much to give her. She is 7.8 lbs and is almost 3 years. I've read through and can't seem to find how much to put in her mouth or foot to lick off.

 

[Scooter1A]

An ivermectin sensitivity will not necessarily wipe out rabbits carrying the gene that results in them being sensitive; in fact that would be unlikely.

For example, in collies, which have been pretty extensively studied in this regard, there is a wide range of ivermectin toxicity effects ranging from coma and death, to less severe illness with full recovery, to no clinical signs of toxicosis at all, depending on the dog, the dosage, and the delivery method.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11822811/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3592367/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1917657/

A vet killed my collie worming it. She was already sick, her fever shot up crazy high and we put her down.