Drats

[gash]

Lost one of my little buggers tonight. A cute little Dutch bunny who was about 7 weeks old. This is my 3rd one I've lost around the same age and in the same manner. I've been getting my dutch bunnies from a local farm supply place and I've recently learned their supplier weans the littles at a ripe age of 4 weeks which I'm guessing could be part of my issue, as I've read that's too early to wean them. Each one that has died has been super slow growing, no signs of illness, regular stools, etc... hours before I find them in the death throws of laying on their side with backs arched. They are fed a healthy field grass mixture straw that was freshly cut 3 months ago, there's no mold and the hay is kept inside, treats every now and then (lettuce, carrots, apples, etc..), fresh water twice a day, bedding changed regularly, and they're always bought with a litter mate who always out grows them and is never affected by the same thing that takes the little.

Is it simply a failure to thrive or is it something else that I could be doing?

Thanks for your assistance. <br /><br /> -- Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:37 pm -- <br /><br /> I should add that they have unlimited access to their hay, as it's in a decent sized hanging feeder and it's replenished as need...never empty. Their water is also never empty.

There were no signs of heat distress or any issue prior to finding each of them in the death throw.

 

[Zass]

I would consider the age and the feed your likely culprits.
Young rabbits can be incredibly sensitive to feed changes.

They are fed a healthy field grass mixture straw that was freshly cut 3 months ago, there's no mold and the hay is kept inside, treats every now and then (lettuce, carrots, apples, etc..), fresh water twice a day

First.. is it hay, or straw? There is a huge nutritional difference between the two.

Their only food is the grass hay(or straw) with occasional fruits and veggies?? I would consider that a very insufficient diet for growing kits.

Ice burg lettuce has been known to be dangerous to rabbits, and weanlings are at their most susceptible age.

For now, I would introduce oats or old fashioned oatmeal to their diets, and skip lettuce entirely.

 

[gash]

Yup, hay and the veggies. We'll sometimes pick a handful of clover, dandelion leaves and some fresh grass from the field but they haven't had any of this for about a week.

When I first get them I give them pellets as their main food source and have hay as a choice. Then over a week and a half or so I slowly reduce the pellets so they are eating mostly hay. I finally remove the pellets all together once I see the pellets lasting more than 24 hrs.

 

[Zass]

I'm of the opinion that grass hay(and veggies) alone does not provide enough protein for growing rabbits.
I also strongly suggest that you provide them a salt and mineral lick if they are pellet free.

 

[gash]

They do have a salt block, I kind of assume that's basic with animals, my bad for not mentioning that.

Weird that one would thrive with that and one would not. Such a bummer if it's not enough protein.

The hay mixture does have *some* alfalfa in it, so I would think that would provide enough protein for the youngster. I'm not sure on the exact ratio.

I'll leave pellets in for an option until I research ways to get more protein naturally.


Thanks for your input.

 

[Miss M]

Some bunnies can handle being weaned at 4 weeks, others can't. There tends to be less risk of weaning enteropathy when they are weaned at 6 weeks. The age at which you are losing them is prime for sudden, deadly GI issues.

It could also be diet related. Young bunnies will grow slowly and not be as healthy if they don't get enough protein in their diet. Do you feed any grains or pellets or alfalfa in addition to the field grass hay?

They could be having problems adjusting to their new diet, too, no matter how good it is.

But since you always buy a pair of littermates, one of which does great, I'm guessing it's more related to the weaning. You could try administering a goat probiotic until they are well past the age at which you are losing them.

Okay, I see you've had a whole conversation ... I should have refreshed the page before I started typing!

I agree with Zass. The hay won't provide enough protein even for an adult rabbit, much less a growing rabbit, unless it's alfalfa or clover hay. I'd feed pellets and hay both free choice until they are about 16 weeks old, then reduce their pellets to a normal adult daily ration. For Dutch, that's probably about 4 - 6 ounces by weight.

Meanwhile, you can research natural feeding in our natural-feeding-for-rabbits-f11.html forum. There are several approaches.

 

[gash]

Thanks for the input. I do have a bunch of Goat probiotics on hand, as I just went through a bout of Goat Polio with one of my Pygmies...not a freaking fun time, he survived tho and is back to normal thank god!

Back to rabbits, I'll start adding the probiotics and I'll go through my bales to see if I can pick out the ones that are more of a 60-40 alfalfa/grass mixture. I'll also go pick fresh alfalfa, add pellets for the time being and I have been reading the natural food section but thank you very much for the link.

I'm so appreciative that I found this forum. I'm learning so much and am realizing those "breeders" whom I've bought my other bunnies from really don't know much and they are lucky their rabbits are thriving so well.

 

[Dood]

What is the muscle tone of the rabbits that die? Do they seem a bit pot bellied?

Would you be willing to open one up and check the organs?

How are they housed?

Often with Hepatic coccidia the stools are normal but the rabbits fail to thrive and eventually get a pot bellied look

I agree that growing rabbits (those under 5 months) need a higher protein and calcium content than the diet you are feeding

Modern rabbit breeds in North America have been selectively bred to thrive on just pellets and it can be a challenge to get them to survive on a non pellet diet - It's taken me 4 generations (and I'm still working on it ) to get my current bloodline of rabbits to do well on a "natural" diet of hay, grains and, in the summer, fresh plant matter

 

[Zass]

I agree, the diet may not have anything at all to do with it, but...I can't help but share a few things that I've learned the hard way about feed.

I've been doing combination feeding for a while, some natural and some pellets. I found that thrive-rate for natural feeds is all over the place between breeds and lines.
As in, some rabbits do not do well with even a little greens in their diet, and some take to it like a fish to water.

The silver fox and meat mutts never did as well as I would have liked, while the velveteen lops and harlequins never ever seem to have a problem with tons of fresh foods. I can transition them quickly and they tend to just, thrive.
:shrug:

The main reason so many breeders are overcautious about fresh foods is because the result is (all too often) death for kits.
From my experience:
Most breeders agree that 4-8 weeks is too young to safely introduce very much in the way of fresh foods to kits who have only been pellet fed.
It is easier to introduce greens to the dam and let the babies start on them with her, that way they can access her already adjusted gi bacteria.

Dood often recommends feeding dime sized pieces of fresh anything to young rabbits, that includes greens , veggies, and fruit.

Fresh clover could be dangerous so introduce slowly. I know that concept is counter-intuitive to everything we are taught about rabbits, but...it's just how it is. :lol:

The safest greens include plantain, strawberry leaves, blackberry or raspberry leaves, rose leaves (unsprayed) and a few others...Those high tannin plants seem to be more likely to cure an ailing digestive tract than cause harm.

Most kitchen herbs are good, too.

Oats and grass hay are among the safest foods that I know of for weanlings or rabbits in general.

 

[Nika]

I'll also go pick fresh alfalfa,

A lot of fresh young clover can cause bloating and death in goats and rabbits, so you should be also cautionous with alfalafa

 

[gash]

I've read about the alfalfa and clover causing problems if fed too much, which is why I've stayed away from it for the most part. I also read that too many fresh veggies/fruits can cause issue, so I've been very cautious with how much I give my bunnies.

So sad that it could have been lack of proper nutrients. I was told that the littles should have no problem switching over to the grass mixture as long as I "weaned" them off the pellets. The littermate of the most recent who passed is doing fabulously. She's having no issue adjusting and is growing like a weed.

In retrospect, each one who perished was always the smaller of the litter-mates as a whole, not by much, but still smaller to begin with. Muscle tone, I'm not sure as I wasn't really paying attention to it, but none of them had a bloated belly or showed any signs of issue prior. I've already buried the body from last night and I'd rather not dig it up, otherwise I'd have no problems inspecting insides.

Pellets have been added to each rabbits home, although they weren't at all interested...they all went straight to their hay. We'll see how that goes. I'll be adding some probiotics, nuts and other "fun" yet nutritious items to their diet too.

As for the housing, they're all in temporary housing as we're building their colony in the barn. Each has an old metal cabinet gutted out, like those big metal ones you see in army barracks. They have a mix of pine shavings and straw on the floor which is routinely cleaned out. I do add a bit of food grade DE to the shavings to help minimize fly issues in the barn. I use it in bedding for all my animals. They have plenty of room to run and play around.


Thank you all so very much for the kindness and information!

 

[imajpm]

My rabbitry is closed now but when I used to add new young rabbits I kept them on whatever type of food they had at their breeders. I feed fodder and it does not grow in summer so even with my own, if I have young bunnies 6-12 weeks when I restart growing it, they don't get any. Otherwise my kits are started right on it when they are with mom. I may be overly cautious but that's how I do it. I have only had one bunny get an intestinal problem. That one was separated at 5 wks of age (for another problem) and stressed. Now I am not sure if that was the cause of her gut problems, she seemed to be a megacolon bunny, but otherwise, slow and cautious with feed changes/additions and there should be few issues.

 

[Zass]

Here is a chart with the approximate protein amounts of different types of hay:
http://bunniesinneed.net/hay-nutritional-value-chart/

I like to see at least 16% protein for the bulk of my rabbit's diets. Especially growing youngsters and pregnant or nursing does.

They do get grass hay along with their pellets, but I consider that more of a fiber source and digestive aid than a primary source of calories for them.

Alfalfa is the main ingredient in most rabbit pellets, and I believe that dried alfalfa hay, alfalfa pellets, or alfalfa cubes are a very safe food for rabbits.

There seems to be a world of difference between fresh plants and dried hay when it comes to rabbit digestion, with the dried hays tending to be safer than the fresh greens for most buns.