Doe biting kits

[BoxerMom]

I have a litter of three day old kits. Started out with 13, lost one for an unknown reason, I'm afraid I'm going to lose the runt, and now I noticed mom has bitten two of the kits. Could it be because I've had my hands in there a lot lately, with checking on the runt and feeding it? This is her second litter, nothing like this happened with the first.

What is my best course of action here? Would taking out the nestbox and kits, and bring them to mom for feedings, be a wise choice?

One kit has a bite through the first layer of skin, and the other was bitten above the ear, and blood was drawn. Is there anything I can do for them or should I just leave it alone?

 

[MaggieJ]

I'd pull the nestbox and just take them for feedings, if that is feasible. A dab of antibiotic ointment on the cuts might not be a bad idea.

I'm not convinced the bites were inflicted by momma. It would be extremely unusual behaviour. Any chance you have RATS?

 

[BoxerMom]

I've never seen a rat, or even so much as a mouse around here. I thought if there was I might at least see droppings, but I don't see anything. The rabbits are kept in my garage, and I have all food/hay/straw in sealed containers to prevent any rodents making homes in it. The doe is very aggressive when she has kits, but only towards people. But, I don't watch them 24/7 so I don't know how she acts when I'm not around.

 

[MaggieJ]

Try an experiment. Leave a small amount of grain where rodents would have access and see if it disappears. It might take a day or two, since rats are cautious and suspicious.

Another thought... are you sure they are bite marks and not damage from the doe's claws when the jumps into the box or from stepping on the kits?

Taking out the nest box should solve the immediate problem, but it would be good to get to the bottom of the issue, so you are certain what you are dealing with.

 

[BoxerMom]

I'll try the grain idea you suggested, hopefully that will give me an idea of whether or not it could be rats.

I'm positive the cut is a bite mark, it is identical to the two bites I received from the doe yesterday. The one with the ear cut could possibly be from mom's claws.

Thanks for the suggestions! I would rather it be a rodent of some sort,seems that would be an easier fix.

 

[MaggieJ]

I hope I'm wrong. If you'd ever dealt with a rat infestation, you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy. Montana's location in relation to rat-free Alberta encourages me to hope it is not a common problem in your part of the world.

I don't know what would make a doe bite tiny kits. It happens occasionally when a doe gets over-zealous cleaning them up at birth but it is unusual once that phase is over.

Be sure to post an update when you know more.

 

[eco2pia]

I am a ways away from Montana, but in my area you are just crazy if you don't have at least 5 secure bait stations around your house. Every fall they start to move in, looking for a nice cozy spot with lots of food to ride out the winter. I hear them move in under the house, but then within a week they find the bait and I don't hear them anymore. We have a very big problem with them here in NW WA.

 

[BoxerMom]

I honestly have never even seen a rat outside of a pet store. I have seen mice, twice. Once when I was a younger child, and then last summer in our old house. I've never heard of any mice/rat infestations around here, so I don't believe there is any problem. I still think that the one bite was from mom, can't say for sure about the wound on the other kit. Both look to be doing fine and the one with the bite wound is healing up nicely. I put them back with mom, as the kit I was trying to keep alive, died sometime overnight. Everyone appears to be doing well, and I am happy to have 11 fat, healthy, babies.

 

[akane]

If you've got livestock you've got mice and eventually rats unless you keep traps set all the time. They'll eat out of the feeders even when you seal everything else up. You won't see them and unless they concentrate somewhere like a feed bag they can get in to or behind something in the corner you won't notice the tiny droppings. If you see a mouse or rat it means you're probably on at least the 3rd or 4th generation to be born in your building. They are mostly nocturnal and avoid people so as soon as they hear you they are gone. One winter I was fairly busy so I didn't get much done in the stable besides cleaning stalls and I started noticing the occasional mouse under the square feeders. Maybe one a month so I just ignored it since it's impossible to have 0 mice in a stable. Come spring when I had time to do some spring cleaning I opened the containers in my tack room to find 20 mice nests full of pinkies, any blanket left sit on anything was torn apart, several leg wraps had been turned in to a nest in the corner, mice came out of everywhere and by the time I stripped the place down I probably killed 100 babies and run out a couple hundred adults to the dog and cats. They are sneaky little critters.

 

[Thumpersden]

I also have a doe who has had several litters but this is her first litter with me. She about 4 years old and this will be her last litter. The kits are 5 weeks old now. This has been happening since the kits started jumping out of the nestbox. If I take them out and put them back in she bites them thumps them and runs them over. I was told that her last birth had only one kit and at 3 weeks old it died of unknown causes. I am suspecting that the way she is with me, I think I know what happened to the baby. I will be trying to wean these babies early because as they get older she gets worse.

 

[BoxerMom]

Well I have to disagree, we don't have mice or rats. I know some of you are convinced that is my problem, but I can say for a fact we don't. 1.) We recently cleaned and organized the garage botoom to top. I would have seen droppings *somewhere*. 2) If there were any around the garage, or even outside, my dogs would probably know about it and would bring it to me as a gift. And 3.) I don't see how a rodent could get in my garage, climb to the top of the hutch, opened the heavy lid, dropped down, gotten past mom, went into the enclosed area of the hutch, bite one kit, get back out of the enclosed area, back past mom, up the side, opened the heavy lid yet again, and escape without leaving any traces. That doesn't sound even slightly far-fetched?

I know I am new to rabbits, and I come here for a lot of advice, but I am not an idiot and am begginning to feel offended that I am being told I am absolutely wrong, despite clear evidence that I was correct in the first place.

 

[akane]

They fit through cage bars, no lids required, and I had kits killed past a doe. My tack room is also as sealed as your garage. Concrete floor, wood touching the floor to ceiling, doors that don't let rain in.... It may not be your problem but you can never guarantee you don't have mice visiting.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Boxermom,

I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that you are wrong. I think they are trying to tell you to keep your mind open to the fact that it *could* be mice/rats, even if you don't see them. Then again, it might not be. It could be that you have a snarky doe that bites her kits. Please don't be offended, everyone here is trying their best to help each other out. Sometimes, we get a little overzealous *helping*! LOL

 

[MaggieJ]

One Acre Farm is right. No one is saying that you definitely have a rodent problem. What I am trying to say is that more than once or twice on this forum and others, I have seen people blame their doe for biting, killing, eating kits only to find out later it was rats. It's not always the case, of course, but we just wanted to alert you to the possibility.<br /><br />__________ Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:50 am __________<br /><br />

I also have a doe who has had several litters but this is her first litter with me. She about 4 years old and this will be her last litter. The kits are 5 weeks old now. This has been happening since the kits started jumping out of the nestbox. If I take them out and put them back in she bites them thumps them and runs them over. I was told that her last birth had only one kit and at 3 weeks old it died of unknown causes. I am suspecting that the way she is with me, I think I know what happened to the baby. I will be trying to wean these babies early because as they get older she gets worse.

Some does get testy with the babies when they want to wean them. Is there any possibility the doe is pregnant again? Have you checked her to rule out sore teats from mastitis?

Five-week-old kits can certainly be weaned. Are they eating solids well? If so, I'd separate them from momma. If you're not sure, you may want to divide the cage, putting kit-sized holes between the sections. Put food and water in the "safe" side. If the doe gets aggressive with them, they have somewhere to go and something to eat and drink.

 

[BoxerMom]

What is frustrating, is that I DID keep an open mind, but as soon as I ruled out mice or rats, I was told I was still wrong. And even more frustrating, when someone else has a similar issue, it's taken as fact and not due to anything else....please try to understand where I'm coming from....I know my area better than anyone else here, I know we don't have rat problems, like I said, never even seen one. Mice can be problems, but not anywhere near me.

I've now lost two more kits because of the doe, and I'm pretty upset I opted to keep an open mind and listen to your advice. I should mention, my hutches are built entirely out of 1/2x1/2 wire, except fori the areas entirely enclosed with wood panels - the lids are solid wood with locks on the left and right. NOTHING is getting on there, save a fly or mosquito.

Kits have been back outside the hutch for 2 days now, the 9 remaining have ben healthy and alive and if we had rats or mice, they would certainly get to them where they are now.

 

[MaggieJ]

You know, if you had mentioned the cage wire you use, we all could have ruled out rats earlier. Not many people use half inch hardware cloth for their cages and it is certainly a detail that is relevant to the situation.

Our well-meaning advice was simply that: advice. You asked us what we thought, and we told you, based on our experiences and the knowledge we had about your situation.

 

[Caido]

One Acre Farm is right. No one is saying that you definitely have a rodent problem. What I am trying to say is that more than once or twice on this forum and others, I have seen people blame their doe for biting, killing, eating kits only to find out later it was rats. It's not always the case, of course, but we just wanted to alert you to the possibility.<br /><br />__________ Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:50 am __________<br /><br />

Some does get testy with the babies when they want to wean them. Is there any possibility the doe is pregnant again? Have you checked her to rule out sore teats from mastitis?

Five-week-old kits can certainly be weaned. Are they eating solids well? If so, I'd separate them from momma. If you're not sure, you may want to divide the cage, putting kit-sized holes between the sections. Put food and water in the "safe" side. If the doe gets aggressive with them, they have somewhere to go and something to eat and drink.

Hello! I have a first time momma of four who was nipping at the back of one of her fallen kits, he was perfectly healthy... what do I do? why was she nipping?-was she trying to pick him up and move him?

 

[ladysown]

Hello! I have a first time momma of four who was nipping at the back of one of her fallen kits, he was perfectly healthy... what do I do? why was she nipping?-was she trying to pick him up and move him?

how old is the kit? What do you mean "fallen" kits? "was perfectly healthy"... so did he pass away?

 

[Caido]

by fallen kits I mean they "fell" or rolled out of the nest. He is alive and well and nursing well to. I have contacted a breeder friend who has been trained and been to many a show. to them, it sounds like momma was overgrooming, this was actually a relief as we initially thought she was trying to cull her "herd". I have removed all four kits for safety purposes, and treated the baby how my research suggested. I have named him Tim. I will put the mom by her babies' nest box and she will hop in and nurse them, or, I will hold her specially so that her babies can nurse. Thank you for your time and concerns, case closed.

 

[Caido]

You know, if you had mentioned the cage wire you use, we all could have ruled out rats earlier. Not many people use half inch hardware cloth for their cages and it is certainly a detail that is relevant to the situation.

Our well-meaning advice was simply that: advice. You asked us what we thought, and we told you, based on our experiences and the knowledge we had about your situation.

and of course, when they ruled it out you had to push it and abuse even more power, as admin, "all knowing" and arrogant. Even though they said that THEY RULED IT OUT!!!! also about half the rabbit people I know use half inch hardware... just admit your wrongs once in a while, its a learning experience, a lesson one might say.