Desperate and deflated.

[Dervis]

Hello all! Sorry for my first post asking for help . Didn’t know what else to do.


Raised meat rabbits for 3-4 years and never had any problems. Feed hay bought locally , clover from property and a good pellet from local animal food supplier. Everything was going great didn't lose any for that first 4 years

then had a dog attack that took out my stock .

Replaced with 2 does one buck, individual cage, same set up as with the years of success. The male died suddenly , didn’t think much of it. Rabbits pass and he was not young to begin with . The litters were born fine and grew fine. At 6 ish weeks removed from the mothers and put in my rabbit tractor things in the yard, just like I had for years. Then one looked lethargic. Noticeably so. Next day it was dead. Then every day 1-2 would be dead. I changed water, feed, moved the tractors, did everything and no matter what the same pattern. One would get lethargic and in a matter of hours dead. The mothers in the barn where still fine so I figured it was something to do with them on the ground. Got another buck , did another round of kits. Birthed fine, no problems but then the kits started dying in the barn in the cages with the mothers. So, where it was happening at 6 weeks now it was happening at 2-3 weeks. The same though . Lethargic, lay down , die. Within hours. You could pick out which one was next just on visual. Out of 15 or so kits only 2 made it full. Butchered, no noticeable issues with them on the inside, and after what I had witness you can be sure I checked.

Nothing had changed in my 4 years of doing rabbits. The hay was from a different place, but I’ve been looking at and feeding hay for horses my whole life, I know what to look for and what is “good hay”.

I ended up butchering the 2 does and buck and did an entire barn clean out. All deep bedding, cages, everything took it out. Cleaned a barn as much as you can, all used hay and waste out. Bleached the cages, did repairs the usual. The plan was wait through winter and start again. Ended up waiting around 6 months . Got a set of 3 again , one buck 2 does. Bred, birthed, Large litters no problem , didn’t lose a single one everyone’s happy . Then at 3 weeks the first one died, exact same. Lethargic then dead. The cage was cleaned out. Moved them to a whole different cage with fresh everything, waterers sanitized through dishwasher weekly anyway, didn’t use the hay put down wood chips (I always have some around for birds I hatch) , even got a different bag of food for the mom. Still every day one or two of the babies dead. So far the other mom / kits cage has not had a loss yet. And now today the buck who was in another barn stall all together dead. The buck had been here for a few months no issues.

So first round lost 12 or so six week old rabbits. Also an older male. Then scores of kits. Scrubbed everything waited 6 months, started new, and now losing 3 week olds, and a year old male. I went years without problems, I have no idea what is going on.

There are occasional rats in the barn , but the cats take care of them mostly. The barn is well ventilated, no pesticides on the property. I raise chickens, turkeys, geese, quail , none of which have or should cause this problem. I don’t know what to do other than just stop doing rabbits. I have 3 cats that are mine, a few others that are wild but I know they hang out at the barn sometimes, None of them are sick.

Thought I would post here for ideas. I dont want to stop doing rabbits, but setting them up to die is not fair to them.



Thanks in advance for your help

 

[Alaska Satin]

Hello all! Sorry for my first post asking for help . Didn’t know what else to do.


Raised meat rabbits for 3-4 years and never had any problems. Feed hay bought locally , clover from property and a good pellet from local animal food supplier. Everything was going great didn't lose any for that first 4 years

then had a dog attack that took out my stock .

Replaced with 2 does one buck, individual cage, same set up as with the years of success. The male died suddenly , didn’t think much of it. Rabbits pass and he was not young to begin with . The litters were born fine and grew fine. At 6 ish weeks removed from the mothers and put in my rabbit tractor things in the yard, just like I had for years. Then one looked lethargic. Noticeably so. Next day it was dead. Then every day 1-2 would be dead. I changed water, feed, moved the tractors, did everything and no matter what the same pattern. One would get lethargic and in a matter of hours dead. The mothers in the barn where still fine so I figured it was something to do with them on the ground. Got another buck , did another round of kits. Birthed fine, no problems but then the kits started dying in the barn in the cages with the mothers. So, where it was happening at 6 weeks now it was happening at 2-3 weeks. The same though . Lethargic, lay down , die. Within hours. You could pick out which one was next just on visual. Out of 15 or so kits only 2 made it full. Butchered, no noticeable issues with them on the inside, and after what I had witness you can be sure I checked.

Nothing had changed in my 4 years of doing rabbits. The hay was from a different place, but I’ve been looking at and feeding hay for horses my whole life, I know what to look for and what is “good hay”.

I ended up butchering the 2 does and buck and did an entire barn clean out. All deep bedding, cages, everything took it out. Cleaned a barn as much as you can, all used hay and waste out. Bleached the cages, did repairs the usual. The plan was wait through winter and start again. Ended up waiting around 6 months . Got a set of 3 again , one buck 2 does. Bred, birthed, Large litters no problem , didn’t lose a single one everyone’s happy . Then at 3 weeks the first one died, exact same. Lethargic then dead. The cage was cleaned out. Moved them to a whole different cage with fresh everything, waterers sanitized through dishwasher weekly anyway, didn’t use the hay put down wood chips (I always have some around for birds I hatch) , even got a different bag of food for the mom. Still every day one or two of the babies dead. So far the other mom / kits cage has not had a loss yet. And now today the buck who was in another barn stall all together dead. The buck had been here for a few months no issues.

So first round lost 12 or so six week old rabbits. Also an older male. Then scores of kits. Scrubbed everything waited 6 months, started new, and now losing 3 week olds, and a year old male. I went years without problems, I have no idea what is going on.

There are occasional rats in the barn , but the cats take care of them mostly. The barn is well ventilated, no pesticides on the property. I raise chickens, turkeys, geese, quail , none of which have or should cause this problem. I don’t know what to do other than just stop doing rabbits. I have 3 cats that are mine, a few others that are wild but I know they hang out at the barn sometimes, None of them are sick.

Thought I would post here for ideas. I dont want to stop doing rabbits, but setting them up to die is not fair to them.



Thanks in advance for your help

I am so sorry to hear of your frustration and losses. Sometimes it can really feel overwhelming to hit a run like this. In fact a horrendous dog attack took me completely out of rabbits when I was a teen, only returning decades later.

My suspicion is that your experience has been a perfect storm of various problems, not just one thing. The thoughts below come from past experiences that I and my friends have had, and in no way are they meant to demean your care for your rabbits, or your attempts to help them. You're obviously trying everything possible to figure out what's going wrong.

Loss of bucks: It has been my experience and that of numerous other breeders that older bucks (>1-1.5 years old) do not always travel or move well. One of the longest-time breeders I knew always said, "If you buy an older buck, breed him right away, 'cause he'll probably die." I have found this to be sadly true; they don't always die, but it does happen a lot more than seems reasonable. I have no idea why. That might explain the loss of your first buck.

The loss of the second, younger buck is more mysterious but like you said, rabbits pass. It's hard to believe he died of the same cause as the kits in another stall. Were there any symptoms before or after death? Also, did you look inside him? I have had bucks die mysteriously and when I opened them up I found a broken back or neck, which can happen if the rabbit is startled and flings itself around its cage/enclosure.

Loss of kits between 3-6 weeks sounds like typical "weaning enteritis," which doesn't necessarily have to do directly with being weaned, rather it refers to the time period in the rabbit's life. It can have a number of causes, from genetic predisposition to unbalanced feed to stress to disease, or any combination of those. Some kits have diarrhea and/or are bloated (big bellies), but other times weaning enteritis can come on really fast with no obvious symptoms other than the fact the kit will sit looking miserable for a few hours, and then just die. It does tend to come in groups, presumably since the kits in a litter are usually related and all are exposed to the same things.

The tendency to suffer from weaning enteritis tends to run in genetic lines, but if you got rid of your breeders in rounds #1 and #2, it doesn't seem like that would explain it entirely. Or were your newest round #3 breeders from the same stock as the others in round #2?

Stresses, especially changes to feed or housing, are some of the most common triggers for weaning enteritis. When weaning litters, some breeders leave the kits in the birth cage and move the mother to a new cage, to reduce that kind of stress on the kits (though I've never found it necessary). Moving bunnies to a tractor - new place, new diet - could have triggered the enteritis in the first group you lost. Even if it worked fine with your original group of rabbits that you lost to the dogs, your new rabbits could have been more sensitive to the changes.

With the second litter, you lost one bunny and reacted quickly...however, even though your efforts made sense, they involved quite dramatic changes. (The cage was cleaned out. Moved them to a whole different cage with fresh everything, waterers sanitized through dishwasher weekly anyway, didn’t use the hay put down wood chips (I always have some around for birds I hatch) , even got a different bag of food for the mom.) Even though well-intentioned, it may have added to whatever level of stress they were already experiencing and made the loss of additional bunnies more likely. I am NOT blaming you!!! Just suggesting a possible scenario in hindsight.

The fact that you currently have one doe with a so-far healthy litter suggests it's not something you're doing or feeding, per se. But the adage, "Breed to the feed," meaning that your herd will adapt to the regimen you maintain, can apply not only to feed but also other aspects of maintenance like housing, routine practices, environmental stressors, etc. My advice would be to keep the bunnies that live and thrive from these latest litters to use as your future breeders. It might take a generation or two, but you really should be able to pull out of this run of bad luck.

Long-time breeders usually end up weathering an awful year every once in a while, a year when one thing after another goes wrong, sometimes with no explanation ever coming forth. Honestly, if you really went four years without ever losing a single rabbit, I think that's a lot more unusual than what you're describing now!

Good luck and God bless.

 

[Dervis]

I appreciate the reply and I am not worried about blame, the rabbits are dead. Blame is for trying to figure out guilt or punishment. I just want rabbits not to die in droves. I will certainly take your advice and I thank you for your time.

I've had several dying the exact same time , the exact same way (as with the older buck and the kits ) I would not generally look for 2 different causes. Like if a kid in a house has a cold, and their father in the house also starts sneezing I would naturally expect a cold. Maybe that is where I have been wrong. Looking for one reason for all the deaths that look identical. They get lethargic , so much so you can visually see the difference just walking in the barn. You can pick out the ones that just don't look right. Lethargic, then they lay down on their side, more like a cat or a hot dog would to take a nap, then die. I have looked at the larger ones and there are no obvious injuries. I will pay more attention to the guts when it happens again, I still have 2 grown rabbits that I have no reason to suspect wont end up the same way.

I think out of 40 rabbits since (counting bucks and kits and breeders) I have ended up putting 4 in the freezer. I cant ,at this point, imagine continuing anything with a 10% success rate.

 

[RabbitDad]

My first thought was a virus of some sort. Obviously you thought that too by the corrective actions you took.
While these forums are an excellent source of first hand knowledge, I think it's time for professional help.
An online vet may help but a vet with local knowledge would be better.
I heard from two sources that our area had some disease that did serious damage to wild rabbit population that cycled every few years. I can't remember what it was called.
Obviously it's not a current issue as there are wild rabbits behind every blade of grass here.
Take what appears to be a healthy rabbit, that's been exposed to whatever it is & let the vet do their magic.
Testing for unknowns can get real expensive, real quick. If you need help with the bill I doubt I'm the only one here that would volunteer.

 

[ladysown]

Questions:

Does the hay you get come sprayed with chemicals? Horse hay is sometimes sprayed with a chemical to help it dry faster, okay for horses, not okay for smaller critters.

Have you ever opened up the little ones that die? If so, what do you see? If you haven't, why not? Next time you have one die, open it up, take copious pictures of everything, post to FB group Rabbits Inside and Out, some very knowledgeable people there, ignore the pundits.

Have you ever treated for intestinal coccidia? Do you have any reason to suspect it?

Genetic play a huge role in weaning enteritis. I had a couple of years of learning about that deadly illness and I learned the following. Wade through the storm. Keep back EVERY kit that survives (the girls), breed them, and cull the ones that produce it. EVENTUALLY you will get that you never see a case of it again (or at least very rarely). Bring in a young buck (under six months)... or better yet, two. From different places.

 

[RabbitDad]

Extremely well written. Good info!

 

[Scooter1A]

My only thought was hay sprayed with weed killer but even so?? yes I would be frustrated. Are they staying cool enough? Got a breeze?

 

[Fluffle]

I’ve had a similar experience a few times over the years. The information given by others is outstanding advice. I will add that I have had success with giving fresh oregano to the herd. It would seem like either a bacteria or virus was present and cleared up noticeably with fresh oregano. We have it our garden so it’s easy for us to use.

 

[Scooter1A]

I’ve had a similar experience a few times over the years. The information given by others is outstanding advice. I will add that I have had success with giving fresh oregano to the herd. It would seem like either a bacteria or virus was present and cleared up noticeably with fresh oregano. We have it our garden so it’s easy for us to use.

oregano....YES. She's a powerful one. Guess it can't hurt if given in small amounts to see what happens.

 

[carolsembellishments]

Apple Cider Vinegar.

 

[Dervis]

I appreciate all the advice and I am using what I can from it.

After 2 days of no deaths, the Doe of the litter that had had 0 deaths is dead.

There is something going on , a disease, bacteria, plague, whatever the name of it is. They all have the same food, water, hay , breeze, shelter, everything is the same. They are dying at apparent random, age and *** does not seem to matter.

One or two a day . Beginning of last month I had 1 buck, 2 does, 20 kits, Now . 1 doe and 14 kits. So I figure Ill have 0 in another 10 or so days.


did an "autopsy" on the doe. she had died sometime within 24 hours, Her liver was BLACK, I went in looking for white notes that would indicate coccidiosis , but it was black.

 

[ladysown]

black might simply be because she was dead. anything with the heart, did you check her spine, did you post to FB rabbits inside and out with pics?

 

[ladysown]

have you thought to get rabbits tested for RVHD2? some people have had random deaths from that virus..... with it taking out half their herd in random ways....

 

[RabbitDad]

This is pretty far fetched but could it be intentional poisioning?

 

[Therese]

I appreciate all the advice and I am using what I can from it.

After 2 days of no deaths, the Doe of the litter that had had 0 deaths is dead.

There is something going on , a disease, bacteria, plague, whatever the name of it is. They all have the same food, water, hay , breeze, shelter, everything is the same. They are dying at apparent random, age and *** does not seem to matter.

One or two a day . Beginning of last month I had 1 buck, 2 does, 20 kits, Now . 1 doe and 14 kits. So I figure Ill have 0 in another 10 or so days.


did an "autopsy" on the doe. she had died sometime within 24 hours, Her liver was BLACK, I went in looking for white notes that would indicate coccidiosis , but it was black.

I am sorry you are going through this nightmare! I have had a few "plagues" go through over the years. A little encouragement: the rabbits that survive will build your herd in a very strong fashion.

If you find out what would cause the liver to turn black, I appreciate knowing. About 6 months ago, I was doing a harvest and one of the livers had a very black fringe on it. I had seen coccidiosis and enteritis, but this was unique and startling. A few other livers had what I'll call "blood lines" and a "drop of blood" on them, which I took as the first stages of the blackening. I may have had one or two more livers with black, but that was the end of that plague (thanks be to God!). I don't remember exactly what precautions I took, but I probably made sure to cull that whole litter, did some cleaning, and watched carefully for any other signs of sickness. And, prayed! That's one thing that raising animals has helped me with: realizing that I am not really in charge of life and death, sickness and health--but God is!

 

[Heartbased Homestead]

Did a little research and found there is a genetic condition in humans which is connected to digestion causing black liver. There were cases of back livers without this genetic issue but it presents differently. Could you post a picture of the liver? I found this on a veterinarian site, about the black liver condition in sheep and goats. Was there any black/gray accumulation elsewhere?

>Affected animals show no clinical signs and therefore cannot be diagnosed while alive. At slaughter the liver is grey to black and when cut, material like black grease sticks to the knife blade. If the liver is black, the kidneys and various lymph nodes may also be black. The lungs may be grey to black, and bones, tendons and artery walls off-white to grey. The black livers and lungs have a distinct metallic smell.

http://www.veterinaryhandbook.com.au/Diseases.aspx

 

[Dervis]

I will try and get the pictures on here later, they are on a phone that went off to work today.
2 more of the kits dead today. Yesterday fine, bouncing, doing their rabbit thing this AM just dead. This time there was some blood around the nose of one, but i've been looking for that on all of them and this is the first sign of it, so Im not sure its a wide symptom.

Everything im doing, looking at has it narrowed down to either Coccidiosis, or RHDV2. TN has some cases, and the state is asking for people to call in if they think it might be happening. Not a huge fan of gov poking around my place but it might be the prudent thing to do .

 

[Alaska Satin]

I will try and get the pictures on here later, they are on a phone that went off to work today.
2 more of the kits dead today. Yesterday fine, bouncing, doing their rabbit thing this AM just dead. This time there was some blood around the nose of one, but i've been looking for that on all of them and this is the first sign of it, so Im not sure its a wide symptom.

Everything im doing, looking at has it narrowed down to either Coccidiosis, or RHDV2. TN has some cases, and the state is asking for people to call in if they think it might be happening. Not a huge fan of gov poking around my place but it might be the prudent thing to do .

I agree at this point with your original instinct that it is something rather than a series of unfortunate coincidences. Does not sound like coccidiosis, at least in my experience, but you could try to address it by giving all the rabbits you have left a course of Corid (amprolium), which should help if it's coccidiosis. But the progression you're detailing, that of seemingly random sudden deaths of variously-aged rabbits, and especially with the nose bleed in the most recent, sounds like how RHDV2 has been described. Prudence suggests that you dispose of the carcasses sensibly, control insect and pests, and limit your interaction with other rabbit herds.

I should mention here that RHDV is a "mandatory reportable disease," which means that any and all accredited veterinarians are required to immediately report to both the Veterinary Official (VO) and the State Animal Health Official all diagnosed or even suspected cases of RHVD.

I also agree that it is extremely unappealing to have the state poking around your place. Think hard about what benefit they might actually provide to you. Past experience says that if they decide it's RHVD2 (and best believe that it will be a decision by a fallible human being, who may or may not have an agenda, which may or may not coincide with your own), they will quite possibly euthanize/confiscate all of your rabbits, and then you'll be in their sights for the foreseeable future.

Maybe TN bureaucrats are kinder and gentler than the ones in AK, but a friend of mine who was maliciously reported for having "too many animals" - that was a few chickens and three rabbits - after she objected to a neighbor's dog killing some of her chickens, is still getting unannounced visits from animal control. She had to get rid of all but two rabbits, yet her neighbor's dogs are still regularly running through her property. Short story, Big Brother doesn't actually love you or your animals.

RHDV2 hasn't made an appearance here yet, but we're watching the same scenario go down with avian influenza: the state gets wind of a possible case, swoops in and euthanizes the entire flock, and the well-intentioned homesteader is left standing there wondering what happened. The things that drive me absolutely crazy about this approach are twofold. First, even a passing understanding of epidemiology tells one that there are always individuals that survive or are immune to a particular pathogen, no matter how virulent. If you kill every bird on a small farm, how are you ever going to produce future generations that can survive that pathogen? (The state's/veterinary industry's solution seems to be that every individual forever forward will receive vaccinations... don't get me started on that.) Second, people seem to agree that wild animals are the prime spreaders of both A.I. and RHDV2, and it does not seem logical to kill a captive, contained, non-mobile flock or herd to "stop the spread" (where have we heard that before?).

Here is the ARBA's information on RHDV types 1 and 2: RHDV2 and your Herd

 

[RabbitDad]

I will try and get the pictures on here later, they are on a phone that went off to work today.
2 more of the kits dead today. Yesterday fine, bouncing, doing their rabbit thing this AM just dead. This time there was some blood around the nose of one, but i've been looking for that on all of them and this is the first sign of it, so Im not sure its a wide symptom.

Everything im doing, looking at has it narrowed down to either Coccidiosis, or RHDV2. TN has some cases, and the state is asking for people to call in if they think it might be happening. Not a huge fan of gov poking around my place but it might be the prudent thing to do .

Too much govt. isn't a good thing but in this case, I'd put out the welcome sign.
I'd be greatful for any help I could get at this point. It may also be a huge help to your community.

 

[tambayo]

With a suspicion of RHDV or even myx your best bet is to immediately vaccinate all other rabbits. Other then that keep musquitos and any bloodsucking flies/bugs away from them (fly screen fabric or some such over the hutches/doors of the shed). If you have a watering system now, switch back to individual crocks because backwash brings saliva into the water and if that contains something bad all rabbits on that system will be exposed.