Crossbreeding meat rabbits? Yes or no?

[Hannah - The Rabbit Girl]

Folks, I would appreciate all feedback from those who have had experience with crossbreeding meat rabbits. Did you get higher yields? What breeds did you cross? Did you notice any other effects of hybrid vigor?

 

[jaxmarblebuns]

I personally have only had one 50/50 (Rex/Californian) cross litter, but I was very pleased with it and plan on having more next year. They grew way faster and they are bulky. I have not yet processed them (I may not with this litter, tbh I’m a little attached to them) but from external feel and weight they are a better then my current pure breeds.

This is a comment I made on another post that goes more into detail on cross breeds.

Post in thread 'Meat rabbit breed of choice'
Meat rabbit breed of choice

 

[Alaska Satin]

Folks, I would appreciate all feedback from those who have had experience with crossbreeding meat rabbits. Did you get higher yields? What breeds did you cross? Did you notice any other effects of hybrid vigor?

I raise Satins for meat and show. I crossed a purebred Californian into my purebred Satins about 4-5 generations ago to improve their loins and flesh condition. Not all outcrosses play out so well, but my results could not have been better. It took another generation to get the satin coat back, but not only do my Satins now grow out faster (usually 5lbs by 9 weeks), but they consistently win Best of Breed and Best in Show and Reserve in Show awards as well. Note that this was a single outcross, with no other rabbits of another breed used since.

 

[Buknee]

My best mama is a chinchilla/nz cross. She is only 7 pounds 7 ounces, but her kits are amazing. I breed her to a cross as well. The babies usually have 4 breeds in them. I have a doe from her last litter that was over 9 pounds at 18 weeks. Quick growers.

 

[BuffBrahmaBantam]

I raise Satins for meat and show. I crossed a purebred Californian into my purebred Satins about 4-5 generations ago to improve their loins and flesh condition. Not all outcrosses play out so well, but my results could not have been better. It took another generation to get the satin coat back, but not only do my Satins now grow out faster (usually 5lbs by 9 weeks), but they consistently win Best of Breed and Best in Show and Reserve in Show awards as well. Note that this was a single outcross, with no other rabbits of another breed used since.
View attachment 32308View attachment 32309View attachment 32310View attachment 32311

Those are beautiful rabbits!

We have kits from a chinchilla/rex cross right now. We were originally planning to butcher the whole litter, but now will think about saving a doe. It is great to hear others’ experience.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Those are beautiful rabbits!

We have kits from a chinchilla/rex cross right now. We were originally planning to butcher the whole litter, but now will think about saving a doe. It is great to hear others’ experience.

Thank you!

I think the key to making broodstock decisions, whether linebreeding or outcrossing, is to have your ultimate goal clearly in mind. If your crossbreeds have what you are most wanting to add to your stock and can help you improve your line, definitely keep one! Just be aware that when dealing with rex, it can take a fair bit of time to get a quality rex coat back on your rabbits after an outcross. On the other hand, crossing a high-quality rex into Am Chin stock may help improve coat density in the chins. Of course if you're not wanting show or fur animals, just go with the biggest, fastest-growing kits with the deepest loins for meat quality!

When outcrossing, I picked a Californian doe who had what I was looking for: an exceptionally wide, deep loin and rock-hard flesh condition. I bred her to my best buck, a blue Satin named G. CH. Deering's Despereaux Blue. Here is that doe, Cler's Callie :


I kept the offspring from that cross that had the best of those two qualities, a black doe named Silk, in spite of the fact that her coat was not satinized - she carried only one of two needed genes - and she had many stray white hairs. I bred her to an excellent white satin buck, G.CH Deering's Conman, who not only had great type but an especially good coat, to recover the Satin texture and sheen. That gave me a litter in which half the kits were satinized, and from those I chose the doe with the best loin and flesh, a californian Satin named Deering's Star. After that, the kits were all satinized, and I could focus on setting the desirable characteristics I now had in my line (and eliminating those white hairs!) by linebreeding.

Here's Star's offspring, the foundation doe of my whole successful "Star" line, Deering's Black Star:

In spite of having enough of those pesky stray white hairs to keep her from achieving Grand Champion herself, Black Star was outstanding at passing on her incredible depth and flesh condition. She has produced many champions, and sires and dams of more champions. And at nearly four years of age, she is still giving me beautiful litters. She was the last generation of unregisterable crossbred rabbits; her offspring are considered purebred and can be registered since they have three generations of satins on their pedigrees. Here are some of her get:

G.CH. Deering's Bluestar (seen in previous post)

G.CH. Deering's Lady Blue

G.CH. and double Best in Show, Deering's Starlight

G.CH. Deering's Eclipse

and my latest up-and-coming young buck, from Black Star's most recent litter, Deering's Nova, who is so big and solid that he has had to be shown in the senior class (Satins are a 6-class breed, with junior, intermediate and senior classes) since he was 5-month-old junior. He has 2 Grand Champion legs and two Reserve Best in Show awards so far, and just won 1st place at the National ARBA Convention in Reno:


As you can tell, I am super happy with the results of my experiment. Many show breeders don't like the idea of crossbreeding, but in Alaska there is pretty limited purebred stock to choose from, and it costs an arm and a leg to bring animals up. I enjoy genetics so it was a win-win for me to try a well-considered outcross.

Good luck with your crossbreeding project!

 

[tambayo]

Raise rex dwarf for meat (adult weight range 1600-1800 grams), size works for me being a 1 person household, so one 12 weeks or so one bunny gives me 3-5 meals, fits my one pot style of cooking that i do most. If i need more, I add a second one to the pot.
I don't breed for show. Breeding goals are :
Healthy animals that do well/thrive in my system
3-5 kits per litter, 3 minimum to keep eachother warm, 5 maximum because i breed dwarf rex and i know there are at least 6 teats on a doe. That way all kits have equal drink time, so less/no chances at runts due to drinking second.
Good mothers, i breed at 6-8 months and expect the doe to do things right from the first litter. This trait is very important, bottle raising kits is possible IF doe gave kits colostrum, but i rather not even try.
And i like multiple color litters, easier to keep kits apart and more fun to look at.
I don't crossbreed both due to rex coats (want to try tanning some hides in the future) and having enough rabbits to choose from for fresh blood.

 

[BuffBrahmaBantam]

Thank you!

I think the key to making broodstock decisions, whether linebreeding or outcrossing, is to have your ultimate goal clearly in mind. If your crossbreeds have what you are most wanting to add to your stock and can help you improve your line, definitely keep one! Just be aware that when dealing with rex, it can take a fair bit of time to get a quality rex coat back on your rabbits after an outcross. On the other hand, crossing a high-quality rex into Am Chin stock may help improve coat density in the chins. Of course if you're not wanting show or fur animals, just go with the biggest, fastest-growing kits with the deepest loins for meat quality!

When outcrossing, I picked a Californian doe who had what I was looking for: an exceptionally wide, deep loin and rock-hard flesh condition. I bred her to my best buck, a blue Satin named G. CH. Deering's Despereaux Blue. Here is that doe, Cler's Callie :
View attachment 32345

I kept the offspring from that cross that had the best of those two qualities, a black doe named Silk, in spite of the fact that her coat was not satinized - she carried only one of two needed genes - and she had many stray white hairs. I bred her to an excellent white satin buck, G.CH Deering's Conman, who not only had great type but an especially good coat, to recover the Satin texture and sheen. That gave me a litter in which half the kits were satinized, and from those I chose the doe with the best loin and flesh, a californian Satin named Deering's Star. After that, the kits were all satinized, and I could focus on setting the desirable characteristics I now had in my line (and eliminating those white hairs!) by linebreeding.

Here's Star's offspring, the foundation doe of my whole successful "Star" line, Deering's Black Star:
View attachment 32346
In spite of having enough of those pesky stray white hairs to keep her from achieving Grand Champion herself, Black Star was outstanding at passing on her incredible depth and flesh condition. She has produced many champions, and sires and dams of more champions. And at nearly four years of age, she is still giving me beautiful litters. She was the last generation of unregisterable crossbred rabbits; her offspring are considered purebred and can be registered since they have three generations of satins on their pedigrees. Here are some of her get:

G.CH. Deering's Bluestar (seen in previous post)
View attachment 32353
G.CH. Deering's Lady Blue
View attachment 32347
G.CH. and double Best in Show, Deering's Starlight
View attachment 32348
G.CH. Deering's Eclipse
View attachment 32350
and my latest up-and-coming young buck, from Black Star's most recent litter, Deering's Nova, who is so big and solid that he has had to be shown in the senior class (Satins are a 6-class breed, with junior, intermediate and senior classes) since he was 5-month-old junior. He has 2 Grand Champion legs and two Reserve Best in Show awards so far, and just won 1st place at the National ARBA Convention in Reno:
View attachment 32349

As you can tell, I am super happy with the results of my experiment. Many show breeders don't like the idea of crossbreeding, but in Alaska there is pretty limited purebred stock to choose from, and it costs an arm and a leg to bring animals up. I enjoy genetics so it was a win-win for me to try a well-considered outcross.

Good luck with your crossbreeding project!

Yes I understand that the Rex coat is recessive.

Can you describe your method for assessing the loins on a live rabbit? Do you do that visually, or by feel?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Yes I understand that the Rex coat is recessive.

Can you describe your method for assessing the loins on a live rabbit? Do you do that visually, or by feel?

I wasn't referring to the recessive feature of the rex coat, which you can recover within two generations. What I meant by "it can take a fair bit of time to get a quality rex coat back on your rabbits after an outcross" was that when crossing rex with another coat type, for some reason you usually lose the higher quality of the rex coat (maybe something to do with rex fur generally being significantly more dense than other fur types?). I've raised both rex and mini rex, and when I messed around with crossbreeding them, I found that for several generations, even after I got the rex fur back, they had poor coats compared to the purebreds: thinner, longer, more obviously kinky.
Here are second and third generation mini rex that had a crossbreeding in their past (a junior and a senior):

And here are purebreds (for at least six generations) of about the same ages - junior then senior:



You can see the difference in the coats from the photos. When you get your hands on the rabbits, it's even more obvious.
That red line - including the third generation red senior above - took four generations before I was passably happy with the quality of the rex coats again. I imagine it would depend somewhat on the breed and particular rabbit you crossed into your line, but I have talked with other rex breeders who reported the same thing.

As for assessing loin on a live rabbit, it's not too difficult. I will try to get down to the barn to get some photos; it's a lot easier to demonstrate than use a purely verbal description.

 

[BuffBrahmaBantam]

I wasn't referring to the recessive feature of the rex coat, which you can recover within two generations. What I meant by "it can take a fair bit of time to get a quality rex coat back on your rabbits after an outcross" was that when crossing rex with another coat type, for some reason you usually lose the higher quality of the rex coat (maybe something to do with rex fur generally being significantly more dense than other fur types?). I've raised both rex and mini rex, and when I messed around with crossbreeding them, I found that for several generations, even after I got the rex fur back, they had poor coats compared to the purebreds: thinner, longer, more obviously kinky.
Here are second and third generation mini rex that had a crossbreeding in their past (a junior and a senior):
View attachment 32376View attachment 32377
And here are purebreds (for at least six generations) of about the same ages - junior then senior:
View attachment 32378
View attachment 32380

You can see the difference in the coats from the photos. When you get your hands on the rabbits, it's even more obvious.
That red line - including the third generation red senior above - took four generations before I was passably happy with the quality of the rex coats again. I imagine it would depend somewhat on the breed and particular rabbit you crossed into your line, but I have talked with other rex breeders who reported the same thing.

As for assessing loin on a live rabbit, it's not too difficult. I will try to get down to the barn to get some photos; it's a lot easier to demonstrate than use a purely verbal description.

Thanks for all the details. Yes, I can see the coat difference even in the photos. The difference is quite pronounced.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Yes I understand that the Rex coat is recessive.

Can you describe your method for assessing the loins on a live rabbit? Do you do that visually, or by feel?

I haven't made it to the barn this evening but I use both visual and tactile cues to assess loins.
Unlike many features, the structure of the loin doesn't really change as the rabbit develops, so you can make a reasonable assessment even at 6 weeks of age, especially when comparing rabbits within a litter or litters of the same age.
There are two dimensions of the loin that I take into account: depth and width. The depth of the loin is directly related to the depth of the rabbit.
In most meat breeds, the width of the animal at its widest point should be equal to the height of the rabbit at its tallest point (known as "depth"). If the rabbit's topline is correct and the rabbit is properly posed, the highest point will be directly in line with its back toes and the point of its knee. Here are two rabbits with excellent depth and two that are lacking depth:



To look at depth of loin, the reference point is moved back slightly, since the loin starts at roughly the top point and extends back from there. With my thumb, I find the slight hollow at the top of the knee and put my index finger at the point on the back directly above it; this way you can actually measure how many inches (hopefully it's inches) tall the loin is.
Here are photos of loin measurements; imagine your thumb at the bottom of the line and your index finger at the top of the line. I've drawn these lines staight up but in practice I probably incline my hand at a slight angle, maybe 10-15 degrees toward the hindquarters.


You can see the relationship between overall depth and depth of loin.
When you're feeling this with your fingers, you are actually holding half of the loin in your hand, just under cover of fur.
There's no point of reference in the next photo but this loin weighed a hair under 1-1/4 pounds all by itself. It was from a large, mature Satin doe (with excellent depth!), not a fryer. This is what you're feeling for:

You can also gauge flesh condition with this technique. The loin should feel meaty, not bony, and you should be able to feel (but not see) a very slight hollow above the knee, but not a sunken area. The loin itself should feel solid and dense.
I'll have to go get pictures for describing width, but I think I've maxed out the number of photos I can post in this entry anyway.

 

[dizzybumblebee]

Thank you for spending the time to demonstrate on pictures Depth and Depth of loin. Nice job explaining.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you for spending the time to demonstrate on pictures Depth and Depth of loin. Nice job explaining.

My pleasure.
I was generously tutored by two gentlemen who are long-time, very successful meat breeders: Robert Mauk, and Randy Cler who is also an ARBA judge. I'm happy to pass on their wisdom, which has helped tremendously improve my own knowledge, not to mention my rabbit breeding program. (It was Randy Cler's Californian doe that gave my Satins such a big jump in quality.)

 

[Buknee]

My pleasure.
I was generously tutored by two gentlemen who are long-time, very successful meat breeders: Robert Mauk, and Randy Cler who is also an ARBA judge. I'm happy to pass on their wisdom, which has helped tremendously improve my own knowledge, not to mention my rabbit breeding program.

I too appreciate all the knowledge as I am only a year into rabbit breeding and thoroughly enjoy it.
Question for you if I may:
I just crossed my purebred Rex buck with a beautiful, solid, fast growing doe. The doe however is a cross of chin/rex/nz. Can I still pull this line back to full rex over several generations if I have a kit worthy of it?
Thank you!

 

[Alaska Satin]

I too appreciate all the knowledge as I am only a year into rabbit breeding and thoroughly enjoy it.
Question for you if I may:
I just crossed my purebred Rex buck with a beautiful, solid, fast growing doe. The doe however is a cross of chin/rex/nz. Can I still pull this line back to full rex over several generations if I have a kit worthy of it?
Thank you!

Yes, it's a great hobby! No matter how long you are involved (I started long, long ago, in another century, haha) there's always more to learn and do.
As far as your rex project, it has been my experience that with enough patience and perseverance, you can achieve most breeding goals. It helps to cultivate a long-game mindset (which in some ways is easier with meat breeds because you can eat your losses!). The rex coat seems a little more challenging to re-establish than some other recessive characteristics, but you certainly can do it. How long it takes will really depend on the stock you start with (both the rex and the outcross), how determined you are willing to be in culling, and if the two lines "click." Honestly, these apply equally when you're breeding purebreds. The first two are more-or-less in your power; the third is basically the luck of the draw.
Some breeders really frown on crossbreeding. In my mind, there are two arguments to that. First, all breeds started out by combining features of other breeds or mixed breeds. And second, genetically speaking, you really can't select for something that you don't have. The only way to add a characteristic lacking in your herd is to get it from somewhere else, and for many of us, distance and/or finances mean we can't just go buy purebred stock to do that. Plus, it's exciting, challenging and so educational to build beautiful rabbits from scratch.
So I say go for it, and good luck and God bless!

 

[Buknee]

Yes, it's a great hobby! No matter how long you are involved (I started long, long ago, in another century, haha) there's always more to learn and do.
As far as your rex project, it has been my experience that with enough patience and perseverance, you can achieve most breeding goals. It helps to cultivate a long-game mindset (which in some ways is easier with meat breeds because you can eat your losses!). The rex coat seems a little more challenging to re-establish than some other recessive characteristics, but you certainly can do it. How long it takes will really depend on the stock you start with (both the rex and the outcross), how determined you are willing to be in culling, and if the two lines "click." Honestly, these apply equally when you're breeding purebreds. The first two are more-or-less in your power; the third is basically the luck of the draw.
Some breeders really frown on crossbreeding. In my mind, there are two arguments to that. First, all breeds started out by combining features of other breeds or mixed breeds. And second, genetically speaking, you really can't select for something that you don't have. The only way to add a characteristic lacking in your herd is to get it from somewhere else, and for many of us, distance and/or finances mean we can't just go buy purebred stock to do that. Plus, it's exciting, challenging and so educational to build beautiful rabbits from scratch.
So I say go for it, and good luck and God bless!

Thank you. I always like a challenge. Plus, it is fun to see how each litter turns out. I have already had many surprises. Like the doe I am using in this cross, she comes from a 7 lb. 4 oz. mama. But she herself is huge and has her Dam's sweet disposition.
I do raise for meat, so no losses here.
I really appreciate your response.
Blessings, Buknee@BellaRoseRabbitry