Crazy Angora genes run amok

[skysthelimit]

First, my Angora peds are three year old eating pizza messy...


I bred the Opal (not first litter) to the REW (dilute, choco carrier) and got a mess of things.

If you know me you know I hate surprises, but this might be an exception.

I see something that is clearly Opal.




One I think is Tort and the other Fawn. The second just seems to have a whiter belly.




The other light ones I thought maybe lilac. A few days ago I thought most of them were white. Nope. But the lilac seems to have dark points, like they are all torted.



Then the only real white, has smutty ears and a smutty nose. Body is not quite white, it glimmers, in the Chin kind of way. A color not accepted in any breed I have. I suspect ermine.




I want to faint. It's interesting how I know my possible outcomes, but the colors do look a bit different with the different breeds.
There is no Cal in these peds, which really mean nothing. But the sire of the Opal is a Sable Chin.

Let's not discuss my inability to take pictures.


Oh and a random Rex just for photobombing purposes.

 

[Zinnia]

Aren't those shaded ones Sable? <br /><br /> __________ Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:24 pm __________ <br /><br /> So, your Opal appears to be A_ B_ Ccchl Dd Ee Can't quite tell if any of those would be Self from the photos, or Chocolate based either. I think that the flash makes it harder to see.

 

[skysthelimit]

Flash off the picture is pitch dark.


She is AaBbC_DdEe. The lower c locus yet to be determined.
The only evidence is the white one. Too early to tell whether it's the chin gene cchld or shaded yet cchl. The Jury is still out.

Which shaded ones? The dark ones are agouti marked. They look like normal Opals, Blues. Except the Lilac looking one looks smutty. Nothing looks like a sable, just not even selfs. They aren't as dark or shimmery as my Siamese Sables or Seals.

The self are evident around day two, let me get the other picture





The tort is normal, she always produces torts. But there was big debate last time whether one was a tort or a fawn. I did not see any clear agouti marks, but the tort color was so faint people thought otherwise. That's because the two from the last litter were chocolate and lilac torts.

 

[Zinnia]

Much better picture. But, I think I see Lynx or Chocolate Agouti there, right?

The photo above with the two kits that are held over your quilt squares ( ) are confusing to me. The one on the left really looks Sable Pearl-ish.

 

[TF3]

Fascinating mix!
They are angoras? How does their fur grow in... like normal furred kits, only just keeps growing?
The light lilac one with the points is lovely!

Is Ermine= Smoked Pearl?
Opal confuses the heck out of me... is it a dilute chocolate agouti ... no, because she is Bb.. if your doe is A_B_C_D_E_ which locus makes her opal? is it all the recessives on the loci?

Love the random rex photobomber!

 

[Zinnia]

Opal is simply diluted Chestnut. Very pretty color.

__________ Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:44 pm __________

If you don't think her missing C is cchl, what are you guessing? I think cchl is likely.

 

[skysthelimit]

Much better picture. But, I think I see Lynx or Chocolate Agouti there, right?

The photo above with the two kits that are held over your quilt squares ( ) are confusing to me. The one on the left really looks Sable Pearl-ish.

The one on the far right? That one is part of the Tort/fawn debate. It's smutty on the side with tort markings, I'm calling that one a smutty Fawn.


The photo with the quilt squares confuses me as well. The one one the left looks sable like one hour, and then not later in the day.

__________ Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:06 am __________

Fascinating mix!
They are angoras? How does their fur grow in... like normal furred kits, only just keeps growing?
The light lilac one with the points is lovely!

Is Ermine= Smoked Pearl?
Opal confuses the heck out of me... is it a dilute chocolate agouti ... no, because she is Bb.. if your doe is A_B_C_D_E_ which locus makes her opal? is it all the recessives on the loci?

Love the random rex photobomber!

For me, the fur starts to look longer around 3 weeks, they look fluffy, then like Jersey Woolies at 4-6 week, then full on long angora fur by 12 weeks, long enough to spin.

The light lilac with the points is giving both Zinnia and I serious trouble. My Jw sables are just gray, no points. So perhaps it is a pearl which I have never seen before, and those really are points.

Ermine is not the same as smoke pearl. Ermine is the Chin gene and non extension. Smoke is the dilute siamese sable. <br /><br /> __________ Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:09 am __________ <br /><br />

If you don't think her missing C is cchl, what are you guessing? I think cchl is likely.

Since the sire of the dam is Sable chin, this could be either. If all these guys really have points, cchl. But if the white is really an Ermine, I'm in trouble here. This is why i bred her to the white, I just had to know what part of that sable chin was going to bite me in the butt. Not that I don't like the chin gene, I have chins, but I just don't want it where it is.

 

[Zinnia]

My recent groups of Fawn kits show themselves with a sleek dusting of darker coloring along their flanks and back end. This evens out as they grow, but it threw me off when I first saw it. Mine were all surely Fawns, though... just a different expression as kits and I'm not sure what it means. They are from new lines I brought in.

The part-time Sable looks exactly like my Sable Chin kits.

I'm pretty sure there's a Sable Chin and a Sable Pearl there. They don't really look odd to me. I think that is about what you'd expect.

I know what you mean about liking a gene, but not wanting it where it is. :lol: I separate my Sables, Chestnuts and Chins the same way... breeding to a REW and sorting the kits. Then I have reliable stock (I don't like surprises usually, either).

Your whole litter appears Agouti to me so that makes the Sable Pearl an Agouti variety of that (Frosted Pearl). I see Fawns - no Torts.

Oh, oops. I do see a Black kit there... but I see mostly Agouti.

 

[skysthelimit]

This is the group from the last fawn/tort debate.




He looks odd, hardly no tort markings, mostly because he's choco, but definitely not agouti from two self parents.

<br /><br /> __________ Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:27 am __________ <br /><br /> Nope they aren't all agouti. Let me get you some better picts

 

[Zinnia]

"Definitely not Agouti from two Self parents" is how I started on my Steel research. :lol: The Fawns gave it away. My lines with non-extension never showed any true to phenotype Steels, just "Self" kits that were really Agouti. Not saying that's what you have going on, but is VERY common.

__________ Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:33 am __________

Those Fawns look Fawn and Cream to me, both Agouti. Maybe your Black from this current litter is Steel Agouti since he's the only one that looks Self in the bunch (that I can see from the photos). <br /><br /> __________ Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:36 am __________ <br /><br /> What do you know about your REW buck?

 

[skysthelimit]

Agouti is a color I am very familiar with, it is the main group I raise in Rex. The picture may be off but the kits are not all agouti.



No steel either.



Clean agoutis from breedings, all these guys are line bred and in bred. If steel was at play, I'd start seeing messy agoutis. Even a Fawn from a steel would have agouti markings, neither of the those kits above were agouti marked.Bellies are proper color for torts.

I know the Rew is a self, carries dilute, chocolate and Tort. He was bred to a doe that was in bred to her sire, which is the sire of everything. Steel would have presented itself by now.

 

[Zinnia]

But, often... so very often one never actually sees any Steel in a Steel line. Just lots of Self (that REALLY look Self) That's how it gets missed.

A Fawn from a Steel line looks Fawn. It is impossible for him to carry the Steel (ee)

 

[skysthelimit]

unfortunately the tort went awol, so i can't show you how his belly was not white, and he had no discernible agouti marks, but for comparison, here is what the two kits that look like cream/ fawn looked like at 3-4 weeks. Neither one of these have agouti nose markings. And the buck doesn't have any eye or nose markings now. The light makes it look white but he is actually a pale tort. Rufus is not very high in this doe.



__________ Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:18 am __________

But, often... so very often one never actually sees any Steel in a Steel line. Just lots of Self (that REALLY look Self) That's how it gets missed.

A Fawn from a Steel line looks Fawn. It is impossible for him to carry the Steel (ee)

Yeah that's kind of my point. This is a line of Agoutis, many Fawns, everything carrying ee. After so much in breeding, Steel would generally presents itself. Everything here carries ee. At some point, after as many litters as I've had, it would begin to show in the Agoutis. Even if the white buck was a steel, he also carries e, so I would not get good clean agoutis here. They would most likely all look like selfs. <br /><br /> __________ Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:29 am __________ <br /><br />


They no longer look pointed, only the agoutis have dark ears and that is proper for the color.




self blues, The very light lilac one is the one that was on the quilt mat, losing his points, looking like a normal lilac. Keeping my eye on them.


check this out, same sire, self daughter of the Opal, but the kit from her on the right is dirty compared to the one on the left.

 

[Zinnia]

So, is the daughter of the Opal's left pictured kit Sable? Looks Sable Chin or Pearl.

 

[TF3]

I don't know if it is any help (I'm struggling to keep up here! LOL).
My litter of two the surprised me with a Siamese sable has a fawn that really looked pointed for a week or two, it is just fawn now but is a C cchl -- would the cchl make the smutty disappearing points?

 

[skysthelimit]

So, is the daughter of the Opal's left pictured kit Sable? Looks Sable Chin or Pearl.

Can't be sable Chin. Daughter of Opal is self, and REW buck is self.

 

[Zinnia]

So Sable Pearl?

 

[skysthelimit]

I don't know if it is any help (I'm struggling to keep up here! LOL).
My litter of two the surprised me with a Siamese sable has a fawn that really looked pointed for a week or two, it is just fawn now but is a C cchl -- would the cchl make the smutty disappearing points?

No. it's an incomplete dominance. An agouti with a cchl gene will generally have points like a shaded rabbit. Shagouti is what some call it.

It's more of the reverse here. As none of them had white ear markings or white ear lacing, it's more like I got Torts that were way too light in body color, not fawns that were so smutty they looked like Torts. None of my Holland torts were ever that light, but also I never had chocolate tort in the hollands either.

 

[Zinnia]

I don't know if it is any help (I'm struggling to keep up here! LOL).
My litter of two the surprised me with a Siamese sable has a fawn that really looked pointed for a week or two, it is just fawn now but is a C cchl -- would the cchl make the smutty disappearing points?

I see the theory. But, I have two does with young kits right now... Kits are C cchl and many are Fawn. They look like normal Fawns.

 

[skysthelimit]

So Sable Pearl?

Now that is a color I have never seen. That should be the same as sable point in JW right? I don't have any of those because I don't have the e gene in that herd.