Count 'em!! Final outcome:

[Rainey]

[

MILK PRODUCTION....! is a vital part
of the genetic package when it comes to high-production does and their
offspring. That important statistic is gauged on the litter's total weight
at 21 days of age.

You "cannot" guesstimate this...it must be verified by the doe having the
milk production to feed 8 youngsters and have them FLORISH. Not once,
but time after time after time. There's no other way. IF the doe is good
enough..........those 8 youngsters' will shine.

Grumpy.

Thank you, Grumpy. I learn so much from your posts. I'd been wondering what age would be good to weigh to figure out who to keep and that makes sense as a way to evaluate a doe. We weigh before butchering and note the age and weight but hadn't figured out what other records would be helpful--can't picture us weighing each kit every week. (Sorry if this is a highjack of the original topic)

 

[Marinea]

I weigh weekly. From doing this, I have learned that while Daisy might be a nicer bun overall, Daphne produces more milk and her kits develop faster. Every litter. For example, right now they both have a litter of 9 born on the same day. Daphne's kits are about a week ahead as far as weights. When it comes time to replace Daphne, I will be keeping one of her does, despite the fact that Daphne is not a very sweet rabbit.

I have two more does I am about to breed for the first time, and I will be weighing their kits as well. I want to get a good handle on the production of my little rabbitry, and be able to make smart changes when I need to.

 

[grumpy]

Grumpy wrote "IN a perfect world, the good doe will have 8 kits time after
time and never miss a breeding. I've had does breed 13 times and kindled
13 times.........they never missed."

That is what one of the does we started with last year did--had 8 each time we bred her. But I thought from reading many RT posts about large litter size that the size of her litters was on the small side.

Now I'm thinking maybe 8 kits every time--no missing and no kits lost before butcher time--was not so bad. Culled her for biting the hands that fed her,

but have kept the best--size, shape and disposition--of her daughters to beed this year. Thanks for helping me see that bigger litters are interesting but not necessarily better after a certain point.

I WISH I HAD A BARN FULL OF THOSE... sans the biting baloney.

Doe's that have aggressive tendencies DON'T last long in my barn. They get
a one-way ticket on the Snake-Train....LOL.

CONSISTENCY is the key for good quality production does.
If a doe has 10-12 kits time in and time out, but only saves 5 to 7, she's
not nearly as valuable as the doe that kindles 7, 8, or 9 and saves every
one of the youngsters.

One of my does littered 73 youngsters over a period of time, and SAVED
72 of those babies. Several of her daughters are in the herd.

You've GOT TO HAVE large litters bred into the genetics...otherwise, you've
nothing to start with. I don't "like" a doe to produce a dozen kits, but if I've
got 'em, I can foster them out to some of my older Gal's who are worth their
weight in Gold with mothering abilities. I most generally breed 4-7 does at
a time, figuring the laws of averages on mishaps and missteps.

For the present, I usually average 250-300 litters per year. Of course, right
now, everything's on hold until we get the new processor lined out. I don't
like it... :angry: :angry: But that's life. 100+ pounds of pellets per day is
tough on the pocket book.

Grumpy.

 

[Lloyd]

I disagree.

Grumpy breeds for PRODUCTION, as do many of us on the forum, and not the show table so he doesn't want rabbits with a 1/2 inch layer of fat over them to look "filled out" :lol: or who get to senior weight at 6 months

I have never kept a female kit from a litter of less than 7 as a replacement doe

1) I would worry she would prematurely develop internal fat deposits that could limit her future fertility

2) how would I know if she had the right genetics to produce enough milk to feed litters of 8 and get them to 5 pound in 8 weeks if her mother only had to feed 4 :shock:

This is in reference to show or meat production. The quicker that a animal gets to senior weight the better. You would still have to breed at the right age but it helps get the genetics better each generation (builds on genetics). Once at a senior weight it is up to you how you feed them. She would have the right genetics to feed big litters as she came from a big litter. It just helps to add to genetics. It also helps to get breeding stock from the 3rd litter or later as long as it is not from a doe that is to old. <br /><br /> __________ Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:01 am __________ <br /><br />

It gives them a head start on the way to becoming very good stock

Again, what is your definition of good stock?


I've had does who were able to feed 9 kits up to 5 lbs at 9 weeks. I've gotten senior weight (very close to 10 lbs) before 6 months. I didn't have to cull or foster to get those weights. The rabbits just had good genetics, good conditions, and maybe a little hybrid vigor .

If I had to cull down a litter to 1/2 size accomplish that. It would be like saying my rabbit was only about 1/2 as capable...or 1/2 as good.

Culling back the litter sizes is more like...a trick to get nicer LOOKING rabbits fast. I don't see how it could do anything to actually improve a line.

Improvement is accomplished by careful selection for traits you want to encourage in herd. There are no head starts or shortcuts to getting there, aside from buying the best starter stock that you can get your hands on.

1) I would worry she would prematurely develop internal fat deposits that could limit her future fertility

Good point Dood, too much fat harms production. You wouldn't want to overfeed a future brood doe.

You dont cull but you foster. I wont waste my time explaining but I will tell you it works. Good stock are 8 kits or more per litter getting to 6lb in less than 12 weeks. Also with all the right traits to be good mothers etc.

 

[Dood]

The quicker that a animal gets to senior weight the better.

not if that weight is due to fat and not muscle ! I keep my does lean and replacement does are put on a restricted diet at 12 weeks so they don't get fatty and none are 10 pounds at 6 months.

I know of no livestock species where the replacement females are encouraged to get to senior weight ASAP : cows (beef and dairy), pigs, poultry, are all put on restricted diets once they are selected for breeding stock.

You would still have to breed at the right age but it helps get the genetics better each generation (builds on genetics).

How? Litters of 4 will have the exact same genetics as litters of 8, the only difference is environmental as the smaller litter will get twice the milk

If I've misinterpreted your statement please clarify or explain this concept in more detail.

You dont cull but you foster.

to whom? My does have 12 to 8 kits each litter so I have to cull/kill the weakest or the kits from does of less value.

If you want me to cull my does litters from 12 to 4 I'd be killing 8 kits :shock: how does that increase my production of rabbit meat? Especially if my rabbits are quite capable of feeding those 12 kits without any runts in the litter?

 

[Lloyd]

The quicker that a animal gets to senior weight the better.

not if that weight is due to fat and not muscle ! I keep my does lean and replacement does are put on a restricted diet at 12 weeks so they don't get fatty and none are 10 pounds at 6 months.

I know of no livestock species where the replacement females are encouraged to get to senior weight ASAP : cows (beef and dairy), pigs, poultry, are all put on restricted diets once they are selected for breeding stock.

You would still have to breed at the right age but it helps get the genetics better each generation (builds on genetics).

How? Litters of 4 will have the exact same genetics as litters of 8, the only difference is environmental as the smaller litter will get twice the milk

If I've misinterpreted your statement please clarify or explain this concept in more detail.

You dont cull but you foster.

to whom? My does have 12 to 8 kits each litter so I have to cull/kill the weakest or the kits from does of less value.

If you want me to cull my does litters from 12 to 4 I'd be killing 8 kits :shock: how does that increase my production of rabbit meat? Especially if my rabbits are quite capable of feeding those 12 kits without any runts in the litter?

For the last time I never said anything about culling. Foster if you can!!!! :evil:

 

[grumpy]

I know this is an old thread, but those were some amazing buns! :hooray:

I'm always "honest"...LOL...even to a fault. I don't know how many on this
site remember Paul Harvey the famous radio commentator. At the end of his
show he would have a segment named, "And now....For the rest of the
Story." I found that portion very interesting because it "delved" beneath
the head-lines of a story and one learned the entire dynamic of the subject.

Well, here's:: The rest of the story!! about the "Sweet-16" litter.

1). The mother, although well-bred, never repeated. She never came close!!
She sadly missed her next two breeding's and on her third following attempt
had difficulties kindling and "I believe" retained a fetus. She became
unthrifty and was sent on the Snake-Train the next time it passed through.

2). The litter...all males were sent to the processor. I sold two or three does
and never heard back from their new owners. I'm assuming all went well
with them. Otherwise, I'm sure I would have heard "something". That's
usually the way it works. No news is good news.

I saved two nice ones and waited, "anxiously" for them to grow out. The day
finally arrived and both were bred...........................DUDS!!! LMAO. :x :x
Between the two....6 breeding's....two litters.....12 or 13 kits....that was it.
End of story....both took a trip on the Train.

I've checked my records and found two litter-mate sister's to the 16-Doe.
Both are top-notch does that are very consistent and reliable. Both have
been bred 5-times and only one has missed once. Litter size has been
Eight to Eleven kits. One or two kits haven't made it to market weight.

Rabbits :x :x :x ya gotta love 'em.

Grumpy.-

 

[ZRab]

I know this is an old thread, but those were some amazing buns! :hooray:

I'm always "honest"...LOL...even to a fault. I don't know how many on this
site remember Paul Harvey the famous radio commentator. At the end of his
show he would have a segment named, "And now....For the rest of the
Story." I found that portion very interesting because it "delved" beneath
the head-lines of a story and one learned the entire dynamic of the subject.

Well, here's:: The rest of the story!! about the "Sweet-16" litter.

1). The mother, although well-bred, never repeated. She never came close!!
She sadly missed her next two breeding's and on her third following attempt
had difficulties kindling and "I believe" retained a fetus. She became
unthrifty and was sent on the Snake-Train the next time it passed through.

2). The litter...all males were sent to the processor. I sold two or three does
and never heard back from their new owners. I'm assuming all went well
with them. Otherwise, I'm sure I would have heard "something". That's
usually the way it works. No news is good news.

I saved two nice ones and waited, "anxiously" for them to grow out. The day
finally arrived and both were bred...........................DUDS!!! LMAO. :x :x
Between the two....6 breeding's....two litters.....12 or 13 kits....that was it.
End of story....both took a trip on the Train.

I've checked my records and found two litter-mate sister's to the 16-Doe.
Both are top-notch does that are very consistent and reliable. Both have
been bred 5-times and only one has missed once. Litter size has been
Eight to Eleven kits. One or two kits haven't made it to market weight.

Rabbits :x :x :x ya gotta love 'em.

Grumpy.-

:lol: Too funny. Thanks for the behind the scenes on the story outcome.

 

[Rabbitdog]

Absolutely amazing. I was planning on driving to Missouri just to try and buy one of those miracle rabbits. Probably would have paid one or two hundred for those genetics.

 

[Miss M]

Well, here's:: The rest of the story!! about the "Sweet-16" litter.

First off, I most definitely remember Paul Harvey! He was my favorite radio personality for a long time.

Thank you for sharing "the rest of the story"! I never would have guessed that it would end that way!!! Guess you never really know until it all plays out, huh?

 

[grumpy]

Well, here's:: The rest of the story!! about the "Sweet-16" litter.

First off, I most definitely remember Paul Harvey! He was my favorite radio personality for a long time.

Thank you for sharing "the rest of the story"! I never would have guessed that it would end that way!!! Guess you never really know until it all plays out, huh?

I could have easily 'sold' those two does for a healthy sum, given the story
behind them. A little embellishment about their history and they could
have fetched a hefty price.

How many folks have bought "older" rabbits and gotten stung? The does
looked picture-perfect.......but they weren't worth a flip. I always urge folks
to buy younger stock...and this is a classic reason "why" they should do so.

Grumpy.

 

[michaels4gardens]

I could have easily 'sold' those two does for a healthy sum, given the story
behind them. A little embellishment about their history and they could
have fetched a hefty price.

How many folks have bought "older" rabbits and gotten stung? The does
looked picture-perfect.......but they weren't worth a flip. I always urge folks
to buy younger stock...and this is a classic reason "why" they should do so.

Grumpy.

I remember buying some very beautiful breeding age NZ stock from a purebred breeder who was well advertised , and sold "show quality" stock,[for a hefty price] --they assured me that all the last 3 generations had all consistently weened 8 or more kits, -- they were very nice rabbits, but-- when I started to breed, everyone of the does had 4 or 5 kits, so I thought it might be those fancy bucks had low fertility, so-- I bred those beautiful does to my mixed up "meat breed mutt" buck because I know he was always throwing big litters, -- well the result was the same-- 4 or 5 kits born-- so I decided to breed the fancy bucks to my meat x does, and they produced their usual nice big litters, so -I kept some of those beautiful young female kits for replacement stock-- guess what-- they had 6 or 7 kits, but not the 8 to 10 their mothers had always produced, -- Well instead of culling the entire genetic line[ like I should have ], --I suffered along with it for about 5 years until I got it up to the production I had from the rabbits I had all along--I guess I could not admit I had totally been "suckkered " and had wasted a lot of my hard to come by money -- what a big waste of time.

 

[Zass]

Michaels4gardens, my experiences have thus far led me to believe that there is an inverse relationship between productivity and price.

Basically, the higher a rabbit's price tag, the less productive I can expect it to be.

 

[Dood]

:yeahthat: This has been my experience with my current stock and with my ND back in the 80's.

80% of my ND didn't cost me a dime most were given to me, along with all their supplies because of agression issues, but they consistently won on the show table :mrgreen: Although I'm certain the price their original owners paid for them was pretty steep

 

[Rainey]

I remember buying some very beautiful breeding age NZ stock from a purebred breeder who was well advertised , and sold "show quality" stock,[for a hefty price] --they assured me that all the last 3 generations had all consistently weened 8 or more kits, -- they were very nice rabbits, but-- when I started to breed, everyone of the does had 4 or 5 kits, so I thought it might be those fancy bucks had low fertility, so-- I bred those beautiful does to my mixed up "meat breed mutt" buck because I know he was always throwing big litters, -- well the result was the same-- 4 or 5 kits born-- so I decided to breed the fancy bucks to my meat x does, and they produced their usual nice big litters, so -I kept some of those beautiful young female kits for replacement stock-- guess what-- they had 6 or 7 kits, but not the 8 to 10 their mothers had always produced, -- Well instead of culling the entire genetic line[ like I should have ], --I suffered along with it for about 5 years until I got it up to the production I had from the rabbits I had all along--I guess I could not admit I had totally been "suckkered " and had wasted a lot of my hard to come by money -- what a big waste of time.

That is what I find so confusing as a beginner--the advice is always to "buy the best breeding stock you can afford", but there might not be much available for meat rabbits in a given area and the information given by the seller may not all be correct and a higher price doesn't always mean higher quality. The other part of the advice--to breed the best and eat the rest--makes sense. But even in that there is the outstanding event--bearing and raising an exceptionally large litter--and then there is performance over time. All I've been able to figure out so far is to start with what I have, learn all I can, keep good records (acknowledging the failures as well as the successes), make the best choices I can given what i have, and realize it will take a while to achieve my goals. In the meantime I'm thankful for tasty rabbit meals and for each new litter of adorable kits.

 

[Dood]

the advice is always to "buy the best breeding stock you can afford"

I believe this is in reference to show stock.

If you just want meat rabbits then I always suggest you find someone who raises rabbits in a manner similar to the way you want to raise them and buy kits from their best stock.

My show stock AmChins were terrible in the production department - and weren't very friendly either but lovely rabbits with perfect ring pattern, terrific shoulders and nice compact bodies

I bet Grumpy's legendary stock wouldn't work well for me either as I feed a mostly forage, grain and hay diet :lol:

BUT I'd be willing to "keep the best and eat the rest" of the stock I had until they perfectly fit my particular production methods

 

[Miss M]

the advice is always to "buy the best breeding stock you can afford"

I believe this is in reference to show stock.

It works for meat stock, too... it's just that the criteria are all different.

The best breeding stock you can afford may be way cheaper than the most expensive breeding stock you can afford.

For meat breeding stock, you want to find out about:
General health of the rabbitry. Does this breeder tend to have healthy rabbits, or do the rabbits tend to have issues, however seemingly insignificant?
Previous litter sizes (for proven doe -- buying young ones tends to work better, though).
Dam's litter sizes.
Milking ability of the does in the line.
Do all the kits tend to make it to butchering... very few losses?
Age at which kits tend to reach 4 pounds, 5 pounds, whatever is your goal.
Etc.

You examine the rabbit for:
General healthy look
Bright, clean eyes
Clean nose
Clean ears
Straight, normal teeth
Clean legs
Healthy, soft fur (not drab looking)
Well-padded feet
Parallel back feet
Correct sex
Clean genitals with no sores
Etc.

A rabbit that passes every test with flying colors may cost much less than you would think. Certainly much less than the most expensive rabbits of that breed. So "buying the best stock you can afford" may cost less than and land you with rabbits superior to your expectations.

 

[grumpy]

I remember buying some very beautiful breeding age NZ stock from a purebred breeder who was well advertised , and sold "show quality" stock,[for a hefty price] --they assured me that all the last 3 generations had all consistently weened 8 or more kits, -- they were very nice rabbits, but-- when I started to breed, everyone of the does had 4 or 5 kits, so I thought it might be those fancy bucks had low fertility, so-- I bred those beautiful does to my mixed up "meat breed mutt" buck because I know he was always throwing big litters, -- well the result was the same-- 4 or 5 kits born-- so I decided to breed the fancy bucks to my meat x does, and they produced their usual nice big litters, so -I kept some of those beautiful young female kits for replacement stock-- guess what-- they had 6 or 7 kits, but not the 8 to 10 their mothers had always produced, -- Well instead of culling the entire genetic line[ like I should have ], --I suffered along with it for about 5 years until I got it up to the production I had from the rabbits I had all along--I guess I could not admit I had totally been "suckkered " and had wasted a lot of my hard to come by money -- what a big waste of time.

That is what I find so confusing as a beginner--the advice is always to "buy the best breeding stock you can afford", but there might not be much available for meat rabbits in a given area and the information given by the seller may not all be correct and a higher price doesn't always mean higher quality. The other part of the advice--to breed the best and eat the rest--makes sense. But even in that there is the outstanding event--bearing and raising an exceptionally large litter--and then there is performance over time. All I've been able to figure out so far is to start with what I have, learn all I can, keep good records (acknowledging the failures as well as the successes), make the best choices I can given what i have, and realize it will take a while to achieve my goals. In the meantime I'm thankful for tasty rabbit meals and for each new litter of adorable kits.

Rainey,
When I started building this rabbitry, I never once thought it would be so
DAD-BLAMED hard to find decent stock. I called the fella that bought me out
lock, stock, and barrel. I should have known better, he changes "interests"
like you and I change socks. He'd already sold the herd piecemeal to any one
that wanted some rabbits. I was "upset" because he'd promised to keep the
herd intact. He started another rabbitry shortly after I began rebuilding.

Needless to say, I went through 50-60 does and a dozen bucks and still
didn't find what I was after. After a time, the fella called me wanting to
sell out once again. He'd gotten his hands on some nice lookin' NZW's and
had yet to breed them. I told him I wanted those 5 rabbits and nothing
more. 2 bucks and 3 does was what he had. One doe was a dud, but the
others were "gold"...I'd found one buck and an older doe from folks here in
town and those 6 rabbits became the foundation of what I have now.

I've given away 3 does to two people I've met on this site. "6rivers" and
"Treesaw". "6's" rabbitry traces back to the doe I gave him. The same with
"Treesaw's". It doesn't take a ton of rabbits....Just one or two will get a fella
up and running in the right direction. I'll give away better rabbits than what
I sell. And I'll only sell one that I'd want to keep for myself. Both of these
folks were somewhat "new" to raising rabbits but they're doin' just fine now.

I've spent "BIG-BUCKS" on stock that couldn't hold a candle to what I have
now as far as commercial production. One never knows "where" that pearl
will be found. But, it's almost a sure-fire guarantee it won't be found in the
purchase of an older rabbit.

You need to ask the question: If I had an excellent doe, would I sell her?

grumpy.