Colour question

[Mckatie]

This New Zealand kit is 1 week old. White belly. The buck is a broken sable point, the doe is red(with smut). Is this tort or chestnut or?

 

[Naelin]

I'm pretty sure this is a broken black tort.
My first instinct was a broken agouti sable point, but I checked pictures of other rabbits with that colour and... nah.
If it's indeed a tort, you know that your doe carries self.

 

[Mckatie]

I'm pretty sure this is a broken black tort.
My first instinct was a broken agouti sable point, but I checked pictures of other rabbits with that colour and... nah.
If it's indeed a tort, you know that your doe carries self.

Thank you!

 

[Mckatie]

I'm pretty sure this is a broken black tort.
My first instinct was a broken agouti sable point, but I checked pictures of other rabbits with that colour and... nah.
If it's indeed a tort, you know that your doe carries self.

The kit does look like a broken tort. So if the doe is self than she is not genetically red, is she? So how does one differentiate a tort from a red by phenotype? Honey simply looked a litte smutty. I will follow this up with photos of 3 red kits(1/2 siblings) for thoughts . Thank you!

 

[Naelin]

The kit does look like a broken tort. So if the doe is self than she is not genetically red, is she? So how does one differentiate a tort from a red by phenotype? Honey simply looked a litte smutty. I will follow this up with photos of 3 red kits(1/2 siblings) for thoughts . Thank you!

She's genetically red, yes. An orange or red (some people only use red for those rabbits with the wideband gene, but not everyone) is an <A_B_C_D_ee>. A black tort is an <aaB_C_D_ee> rabbit (The _ mean unknown genes, they can have anything there and still be orange/black tort).
As you can see, there is not much of a difference. They are the same colour except one is self-based and the other is agouti.

For the baby to be tort, your doe only needs to carry the <a> gene in order to pass it down, she doesn't need to show it. By having a tort kit you know she's <AaB_C_D_ee>, still genetically orange/red.

 

[Mckatie]

She's genetically red, yes. An orange or red (some people only use red for those rabbits with the wideband gene, but not everyone) is an <A_B_C_D_ee>. A black tort is an <aaB_C_D_ee> rabbit (The _ mean unknown genes, they can have anything there and still be orange/black tort).
As you can see, there is not much of a difference. They are the same colour except one is self-based and the other is agouti.

For the baby to be tort, your doe only needs to carry the <a> gene in order to pass it down, she doesn't need to show it. By having a tort kit you know she's <AaB_C_D_ee>, still genetically orange/red.

Thank you for the clarification! The kit colour is a welcome addition... everything goes in my lines. Hopefully I see a few more in the future.

 

[Alaska Satin]

The kit does look like a broken tort. So if the doe is self than she is not genetically red, is she? So how does one differentiate a tort from a red by phenotype? Honey simply looked a litte smutty. I will follow this up with photos of 3 red kits(1/2 siblings) for thoughts . Thank you!

I agree, broken tort kit. Very smutty reds and torts can be similar, but check the belly color (which may or may not be helpful on a broken!). You can also look at the ear lining, which doesn't appear to be white in this kit, so that argues for self (tort), though ear color can also be somewhat confused by the broken pattern.

You're right, if the doe is self, she is not genetically red (which is an agouti variety). But as @Naelin says, she could be red (i.e. agouti) but carry a recessive self allele, which she must do if she produced a tort. From the photo of her (?) behind that kit, I'd say smutty red (in this case you could check her belly color - it'll be creamy on a red, dark gray on a tort). If she was actually tort, you'd almost certainly see black on her nose, as well as a dark belly.

 

[Mckatie]

I agree, broken tort kit. Very smutty reds and torts can be similar, but check the belly color (which may or may not be helpful on a broken!). You can also look at the ear lining, which doesn't appear to be white in this kit, so that argues for self (tort), though ear color can also be somewhat confused by the broken pattern.

You're right, if the doe is self, she is not genetically red (which is an agouti variety). But as @Naelin says, she could be red (i.e. agouti) but carry a recessive self allele, which she must do if she produced a tort. From the photo of her (?) behind that kit, I'd say smutty red (in this case you could check her belly color - it'll be creamy on a red, dark gray on a tort). If she was actually tort, you'd almost certainly see black on her nose, as well as a dark belly.

Thank you! My "reds" are creamy on the belly.... the only difference is the width of the "creamy" section. This makes sense because my broken buck is <aa> and if the doe is <Aa> there is the possibility of broken torts. This doe (out of gold tipped steel/sable point) was not as red as I'd have liked, and this is her first litter. I had previously bred her to a better red, but nothing came of that. However, I'm loving the new colour addition. I appreciate you and @Naelin taking the time to explain. As you know, I love some colour.

Since I decided not to show I work on body type /fast growing weights and embrace all the colours. I make sure the pedigrees show the most accurate colours and genotypes. Although, mostly the rabbits go to the freezer. And my friends enjoy the pelt colours for their projects. I liked the comment you made pertaining to the dog food since I just prep/freeze the rabbit meat two ways- whole or cut - easier for me. I think my dogs are city dogs..trophy hunters.