Color?

[RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN]

I need another opinion on what this bucks coloring is. I was told he is chocolate.
(Sorry, they aren't the best pics) He is a Silver Fox

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

I don't know much about the breed, but it looks like a Chocolate Champagne

 

[Alaska Satin]

I need another opinion on what this bucks coloring is. I was told he is chocolate.
(Sorry, they aren't the best pics)

He looks like a silvered chocolate, aka Argente Brun (French: argente = silver, brun = brown)
It's the newest silvered breed accepted by the ARBA, in 2016. Their silvering is not necessarily as heavy as that of the Champagne D'Argent, but they have the same distinctive nose butterfly.
https://arba.net/argente-brun/

 

[RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN]

I don't know much about the breed, but it looks like a Chocolate Champagne

Oh, sorry I forgot to mention he is a Silver Fox.

 

[RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN]

He looks like a silvered chocolate, aka Argente Brun (French: argente = silver, brun = brown)
It's the newest silvered breed accepted by the ARBA, in 2016. Their silvering is not necessarily as heavy as that of the Champagne D'Argent, but they have the same distinctive nose butterfly.
https://arba.net/argente-brun/

Sorry, I forgot to mention he is a Silver Fox.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Sorry, I forgot to mention he is a Silver Fox.

Silver Fox usually do not have that nose butterfly; they also generally have less silvering and longer fur than the rabbit pictured, as well as always having the unique stand-up fox fur they're known for. I kind of wonder if you got an Argente Brun, or a crossbreed.

 

[RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN]

Silver Fox usually do not have that nose butterfly; they also generally have less silvering and longer fur than the rabbit pictured, as well as always having the unique stand-up fox fur they're known for. I kind of wonder if you got an Argente Brun, or a crossbreed.

Lol, He does look like a Argente Brun (Oh, great now I'm worried lol). But I don't think the breeder bred any Argente Bruns. Is there any way I could get a test to see? Or is that not a thing? I doubt he is a Argente Brun but just to be sure.

 

[judymac]

Sorry, no test for breed that I know of for rabbits. But I have another question--this could just be my monitor, or light differences when the photo was taken, but is the rabbit's right ear (the left looking at the photo) really part chocolate and part yellowish?

The back looks like there are patches of yellowish hair scattered through it as well, a chocolate silver fox does not do that--the rabbit is born chocolate and then develops the silvering as it grows. No patches of color. I hate to say it, as I seem to see harlequin traits popping up over now that I'm raising them myself, but unless this is just a photo issue, I'd suspect harlequin.

 

[RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN]

Sorry, no test for breed that I know of for rabbits. But I have another question--this could just be my monitor, or light differences when the photo was taken, but is the rabbit's right ear (the left looking at the photo) really part chocolate and part yellowish?
View attachment 41104
The back looks like there are patches of yellowish hair scattered through it as well, a chocolate silver fox does not do that--the rabbit is born chocolate and then develops the silvering as it grows. No patches of color. I hate to say it, as I seem to see harlequin traits popping up over now that I'm raising them myself, but unless this is just a photo issue, I'd suspect harlequin.

I thought it was weird that he had splotches of chocolate in his coat. I had assumed he was molting. I will have to look at him more Thurley tonight. The breeder I got him from had several bucks with her because she was meeting up with a couple other people she could have switched them. Ugh, this is so frustrating! He has been bred with several of my does!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Lol, He does look like a Argente Brun (Oh, great now I'm worried lol). But I don't think the breeder bred any Argente Bruns. Is there any way I could get a test to see? Or is that not a thing? I doubt he is a Argente Brun but just to be sure.

I don't know of any genetics test, but you can tell whether or not he's a Silver Fox by examining his coat. SF fur should be fairly long - ideal is 1-1/2 inches - and it should stand up straight when stroked forward toward his head, without any hint of rollback action. There are of course Silver Fox that don't fit the breed standard very well, but if he has a shorter, rollback coat (the fur on his face looks like it), he is most likely not a purebred silver fox.

So here's the thing...other than the Silver Fox, which has a completely unique fur type, and the Silver, which has a smaller body and distinct flyback coat, the silvered breeds basically can be imagined on a spectrum. While there are differences among the breeds, they all have similar commercial type body and fur.

In America, there is the self black (Champagne D'Argent), the self chocolate (Argente Brun), the fawn/orange (Creme D'Argent) and the agouti (Argente St Hubert, which comes in chestnut, chocolate agouti, lynx and opal, and is currently under a COD awaiting recognition by the ARBA). Other than the Champagne, most of these breeds are rare or uncommon.

All of this to say that some people, even those that are breeding to the standard, cross other colors or even other breeds into their Argentes, in order to improve their lines or to create new ones. In my barn I have Satin x Champagne crosses, working toward improved type and condition in my Champagnes; and I have a litter out of a Champagne x New Zealand Red cross, to create Argente St Huberts, eventually hoping to produce improved Creme D'Argents from those St Huberts that carry what is needed for an orange silver.

So in the case of your buck, I could imagine someone might have crossed a self chocolate of another breed into their Silver Fox, in hopes of breeding chocolate Silver Fox. On the way to that, you'd get rabbits that might look like your buck, with silvering but not a SF coat. Or, he could just be from one of the Argente breeds without any SF background.

Sorry, no test for breed that I know of for rabbits. But I have another question--this could just be my monitor, or light differences when the photo was taken, but is the rabbit's right ear (the left looking at the photo) really part chocolate and part yellowish?

The back looks like there are patches of yellowish hair scattered through it as well, a chocolate silver fox does not do that--the rabbit is born chocolate and then develops the silvering as it grows. No patches of color. I hate to say it, as I seem to see harlequin traits popping up over now that I'm raising them myself, but unless this is just a photo issue, I'd suspect harlequin.

I thought briefly about Argente St Hubert when I saw this buck due to the apparent variation in the color under the silvering, but decided against that when I could not see any agouti lacing on his ears, or any eye rings or nostril markings at all. He does have what looks like it could be molt patterns along his side, but you're right, in these photos his ear does not look chocolate, even if it were sunburned/molt faded.

It wouldn't make much sense to throw a harlequin into a silvered breed, but if you give people credit(?) for doing all kinds of inexplicable things, I think that harlequin could be a pretty good explanation of what we see in these photos. Now that you've got me looking, his nose butterfly looks like it might bi-colored, and it looks like there may be a stripe or two on his cheek:


@RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN, could we get a few more pictures of him, like a side view and one of his belly and undertail?

 

[RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN]

I don't know of any genetics test, but you can tell whether or not he's a Silver Fox by examining his coat. SF fur should be fairly long - ideal is 1-1/2 inches - and it should stand up straight when stroked forward toward his head, without any hint of rollback action. There are of course Silver Fox that don't fit the breed standard very well, but if he has a shorter, rollback coat (the fur on his face looks like it), he is most likely not a purebred silver fox.

So here's the thing...other than the Silver Fox, which has a completely unique fur type, and the Silver, which has a smaller body and distinct flyback coat, the silvered breeds basically can be imagined on a spectrum. While there are differences among the breeds, they all have similar commercial type body and fur.

In America, there is the self black (Champagne D'Argent), the self chocolate (Argente Brun), the fawn/orange (Creme D'Argent) and the agouti (Argente St Hubert, which comes in chestnut, chocolate agouti, lynx and opal, and is currently under a COD awaiting recognition by the ARBA). Other than the Champagne, most of these breeds are rare or uncommon.

All of this to say that some people, even those that are breeding to the standard, cross other colors or even other breeds into their Argentes, in order to improve their lines or to create new ones. In my barn I have Satin x Champagne crosses, working toward improved improve type and condition in my Champagnes; and I have a litter out of a Champagne x New Zealand Red cross, to create Argente St Huberts, eventually hoping to produce improved Creme D'Argents from those St Huberts that carry what is needed for an orange silver.

So in the case of your buck, I could imagine someone might have crossed a self chocolate of another breed into their Silver Fox, in hopes of breeding chocolate Silver Fox. On the way to that, you'd get rabbits that might look like your buck, with silvering but not a SF coat. Or, he could just be from one of the Argente breeds without any SF background.


I thought briefly about Argente St Hubert when I saw this buck due to the apparent variation in the color under the silvering, but decided against that when I could not see any agouti lacing on his ears, or any eye rings or nostril markings at all. He does have what looks like it could be molt patterns along his side, but you're right, in these photos his ear does not look chocolate, even if it were sunburned/molt faded.

It wouldn't make much sense to throw a harlequin into a silvered breed, but if you give people credit(?) for doing all kinds of inexplicable things, I think that harlequin could be a pretty good explanation of what we see in these photos. Now that you've got me looking, his nose butterfly looks like it might bi-colored, and it looks like there may be stripe or two on his cheek:
View attachment 41105

@RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN, could we got a few more pictures of him, like a side view and one of his belly and undertail?

I will try my best to get more pics today. It might not happen because Mondays are busy. Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Sorry, no test for breed that I know of for rabbits. But I have another question--this could just be my monitor, or light differences when the photo was taken, but is the rabbit's right ear (the left looking at the photo) really part chocolate and part yellowish?

The back looks like there are patches of yellowish hair scattered through it as well, a chocolate silver fox does not do that--the rabbit is born chocolate and then develops the silvering as it grows. No patches of color. I hate to say it, as I seem to see harlequin traits popping up over now that I'm raising them myself, but unless this is just a photo issue, I'd suspect harlequin.

OK, so I am still thinking about color variations... what I am about to say doesn't necessarily apply to @RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN's buck, who doesn't appear to be agouti. But just because it's interesting in the context of this discussion...

I went and looked at my little "St Huberts," who are all chestnut (from a Champagne x NZ red), not yet silvering. It's true that agoutis develop in spurts, but these bunnies really have a lot of fairly distinct areas of color on their faces, ears, front feet and over their backs. I know, as certainly as you can know these things, that there is no harlequin in these guys; but if you didn't know their background, if you really look at them you surely might think so:

 

[judymac]

I know, as certainly as you can know these things, that there is no harlequin in these guys; but if you didn't know their background, if you really look at them you surely might think so:

Perfect example, thank you! Harlequin just didn't seem likely, but I couldn't come up with any other explanation for all those orange patches.

 

[olhippityhop]

OK, so I am still thinking about color variations... what I am about to say doesn't necessarily apply to @RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN's buck, who doesn't appear to be agouti. But just because it's interesting in the context of this discussion...

I went and looked at my little "St Huberts," who are all chestnut (from a Champagne x NZ red), not yet silvering. It's true that agoutis develop in spurts, but these bunnies really have a lot of fairly distinct areas of color on their faces, ears, front feet and over their backs. I know, as certainly as you can know these things, that there is no harlequin in these guys; but if you didn't know their background, if you really look at them you surely might think so:
View attachment 41117View attachment 41118

I just did that exact Champagne/NZ Red cross over the weekend. I wonder if my kits will look like yours.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Perfect example, thank you! Harlequin just didn't seem likely, but I couldn't come up with any other explanation for all those orange patches.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the chance of harlequin causing the color variation; I agree that it's the most obvious possibility given that the buck looks like he could (?) be a crossbreed. I am looking forward to more photos of him.

But I am finding this an interesting discussion since I am new to St Hubert genetics, and am already being surprised by the intersection of agouti and silvering. Not only do agoutis go through marked color changes as they mature, but that's compounded by the patchiness of silvering as it develops. Here are some photos of St Huberts (some from Europe since they've been around there since the 1800s):

I will try my best to get more pics today. It might not happen because Mondays are busy. Thank you so much for your help!

For reference, here are photos of a chocolate Silver Fox, from https://arba.net/arba-standards-committee/, and then an Argente Brun, from https://arba.net/recognized-breeds/

The Brun above doesn't show the nose butterfly very well...here's a photo that shows it better from https://www.raising-rabbits.com/champagne-dargent.html. The Argente Brun rabbit on the left of the photo is silvered the way the ARBA standard asks for, while the one on the right looks more like Argentes I've seen from Europe:

 

[Alaska Satin]

I just did that exact Champagne/NZ Red cross over the weekend. I wonder if my kits will look like yours.

Yeah, they might, or they might look otherwise if the parents carry hidden recessives (dilute, for instance). Do you know the pedigree of the NZR?
I'd love to see photos as they grow.

 

[olhippityhop]

Yeah, they might, or they might look otherwise if the parents carry hidden recessives (dilute, for instance). Do you know the pedigree of the NZR?
I'd love to see photos as they grow.

I do have the pedigree for the New Zealand Red. I'll have to get it out and look for hidden genes. This is her first time being bred. Assuming it worked, I'll share pictures in a month.

 

[RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN]

Sorry, I've been trying to get pics of him but I've been busy. I will hopefully get some today!