Color experience, please!

[Zinnia]

I'd love a little help determining who these guys are...

The litter consisted of

French Angora
black self (chin)
BEW or Ermine (eyes are bluish now, but...)
torts (looks like a lilac and a few black tort?)
maybe a fawn (could be lilac tort?)
Then a chinchilla or chestnut???
and a chocolate agouti???

What do you think?

doe - AaBbC_ddee

buck -aaBbcchdcD_Ee


chocolate agouti?? tort otter?




Chinchilla or Chestnut?? :?




__________ Sun May 18, 2014 11:40 am __________

pic with the torts, black and white kits...


__________ Sun May 18, 2014 6:12 pm __________

 

[Sagebrush]

I guess I will be the first to try and help. I think the first pic is either a chocolate agouti or possibly a lynx. The fourth pic looks like a chin to me. I do not know genetics in rabbits at all yet, so I am going by what I can see. The first kit looks like my lynx palomino.

 

[Dood]

1- I see a lot of black so I'd say chestnut. A tort otter is more tort like than otter so the belly tends not to be white/cream

2 - chinchilla - too little of the yellow pigment to be a chestnut.

If your doe is a blue fawn and the buck a black self chinchilla that has fathered REW then those genotypes work but the doe must carry a recessive (chin, shaded, himilayan or REW) on her C-locus to produce a chinchilla kit.

Normally ermine / frosty are not so white and I'd like a good picture of the eye colour on that kit as himilayans and REW that are genetically chinchilla can have greyish pink eyes.

 

[akane]

It would take quite a lot of color reducing genes to make a pure white ermine. That's why they are often called frosty. They are lightly covered with dark tips of an agouti pattern. Usually they are even darker than sable points. If you get a frosty you will know it. They aren't pure enough white for anything and they aren't marked dark enough for much else.

Sable point, frosties, and some tan gene kit I don't remember. Sable x ermine with tan gene so probably silver marten.

Sable point and frosties

They do come lighter than what I had, especially the other color varieties like blues or lilacs, but they are definitely not white. I'm not sure what they look like with wool. When they have short coats you can see the agouti pattern swirl that you also get on other colors of agouti kits until they even out.

 

[Zinnia]

1- I see a lot of black so I'd say chestnut. A tort otter is more tort like than otter so the belly tends not to be white/cream

2 - chinchilla - too little of the yellow pigment to be a chestnut.

If your doe is a blue fawn and the buck a black self chinchilla that has fathered REW then those genotypes work but the doe must carry a recessive (chin, shaded, himilayan or REW) on her C-locus to produce a chinchilla kit.

Normally ermine / frosty are not so white and I'd like a good picture of the eye colour on that kit as himilayans and REW that are genetically chinchilla can have greyish pink eyes.

Thanks, guys.

I have two does with two week old kits from the same buck, so I have something to compare to.... The REW from the other litter (Milkweed's... aabbccdcDdee) have quite obviously red eyes.

So, when all the kits' eyes were open, I concluded the white one from Nutmeg's litter (Cream doe) was not REW, as I saw no red... they look blue-grey to me....

So the doe's hidden color gene could either be cchl, cchd, or c... The buck has a hidden c. I was hoping she had a hidden c, so things would be less of a mystery. This is her 3rd litter and she's never given me chins or REWs yet...

I will get a picture of those eyes! Maybe that will help solve the mystery.

I was hoping that the darker one was a chestnut... that could be true if the white one was REW, I guess, right... because there would be no cchl anywhere...

Thanks,

Zinnia <br /><br /> __________ Mon May 19, 2014 7:01 am __________ <br /><br /> Akane, the other litter (Milkweed's) witht the same buck gave me 2 REW and all the rest the same as what you pictured. I was told they were black or blue pearls, (mama is Choc. Pearl in angora...). One has Chocolate points... ALL looked totally white until they were at least 5 days old.

Does that mean those 'Pearls' are really Ermine?

Thanks

 

[Dood]

Almost

Angoras are one of the breeds with their own fancy names but agouti based chins and shadeds and non-extensions are still frosty/ermine BUT called frosted pearl

Genetically an angora "pearl" is any chinchilla or shaded and non extension - A_ OR aa __ cchd_ OR cchl_ __ ee

 

[Zinnia]

Okay, here are the pictures... best I could do in the light I had.

I see no coloration in the fur at all, anywhere. He's as white as the REWs from the other doe's litter... as far as I can tell...





__________ Mon May 19, 2014 8:48 am __________

I just had someone else tell me that the reddish kit was not a chestnut, but a fawn... could that even be true? This doe's fawns have always looked fawn, not chestnut. And this doe has often given me very red chestnuts (she has high rufus?)

__________ Mon May 19, 2014 8:54 am __________

So, if it's true that the dark one is a Chin (okay to have that much tan in the back and under the cheek, I assume), then could I conclude that cchl is the missing allele (is that the right term?) in the doe? That is the only one I did not know for certain.

And if so, that would have to make this white kit something other than REW, of course... since there's no c in her genotype. <br /><br /> __________ Mon May 19, 2014 9:06 am __________ <br /><br />

Almost

Angoras are one of the breeds with their own fancy names but agouti based chins and shadeds and non-extensions are still frosty/ermine BUT called frosted pearl

Genetically an angora "pearl" is any chinchilla or shaded and non extension - A_ OR aa __ cchd_ OR cchl_ __ ee

This is interesting and answers some other questions I have... ultimately, it confirms that I want to cull the shaded! How confusing! I have a doe who's 'Pearls' all had color at a day old. That's different than this doe's litter...

If I can't tell if the kit shows A or aa, then I don't want it.

I'm culling the buck, as I just got a really awesome REW buck that I will use this year. But, I want to figure out which does to cull. So I will likely cull the 2 Pearl does.

 

[Dood]

The white kit is definitely not a chinchilla REW and must be a frosty but a crazy light coloured one

Way too much black extension to be a fawn (non extension) IMHO but the "fur" breeds are not my forte.

So, if it's true that the dark one is a Chin .

Unfortunatly no. Light shaded agouti (cchl_) can look exactly like true chinchillas with the dark shaded gene (cchd_) and sometimes better :shock: I just discover one of my chinchilla does is a shaded agouti as she popped out a few sable points instead of sallanders which is what I was trying to get - back to the drawing board :groooan:

then could I conclude that cchl is the missing allele (is that the right term?) in the doe? That is the only one I did not know for certain

No, the kit could have gotten the chin gene from pop instead and since there is only a 25% chance she could still have himi or REW in the next litter. Breeding her to a REW or Himi should give a definitive answer as to her recessive C-locus gene as there is 50% chance of producing himi or REW if she carries "ch" or "c"

 

[Zinnia]

The white kit is definitely not a chinchilla REW and must be a frosty but a crazy light coloured one

Way too much black extension to be a fawn (non extension) IMHO but the "fur" breeds are not my forte.

So, if it's true that the dark one is a Chin .

Unfortunatly no. Light shaded agouti (cchl_) can look exactly like true chinchillas with the dark shaded gene (cchd_) and sometimes better :shock: I just discover one of my chinchilla does is a shaded agouti as she popped out a few sable points instead of sallanders which is what I was trying to get - back to the drawing board :groooan:

then could I conclude that cchl is the missing allele (is that the right term?) in the doe? That is the only one I did not know for certain

No, the kit could have gotten the chin gene from pop instead and since there is only a 25% chance she could still have himi or REW in the next litter. Breeding her to a REW or Himi should give a definitive answer as to her recessive C-locus gene as there is 50% chance of producing himi or REW if she carries "ch" or "c"

So, a shaded agouti is not technically a Chin, then? What will you consider your doe to be, now knowing this... Is there a name for it?

Yep, I'll be back to the drawing board with this group, too. I love a good mystery, but this is becoming a bit too much.

I guess the white one may have A or aa, then. I wonder what made him hide color so much more. So, dare I attempt to write out his genotype? Aa(or aa)bbcchdcchd(or cchl)ddee... I'm just guessing he's dilute as he's light as can be. And, I'm guessing on the b because I find my b based are much lighter than my B based dilutes... only guesses

Thanks again for all of your wisdom!

 

[Dood]

Shaded agoutis are not recognized colour but can sneak in and are just calls chinchilla since it can be tricky to tell them apart.

I suspect a lot of the "chinchillas" found in the small rabbit breeds that accept seals, sables, and sable points are not dark shaded but light.

The white kit would be a sable( or chocolate, or blue or lilac ) point or sallander if he was self "aa" and must be agouti based "A_"

 

[Zass]

I want to add, I had a pair of mutts that threw ermines that looked pure white with bluish eyes in the nestbox, as matured they would get a bit of odd shading and the eyes would darken to a greyish or brown..let me find a pic...

 

[Zinnia]

Thanks Zass!

Yes, I bet this could be the way mine turns out.

In light of my discovery today re: the buck from this litter... I guess his genotype is really in question. But, would that even make a difference now....?

I know that my buck "Ash" is a black self chin carrying REW. The only thing that changes is that his sire is (maybe) Tort, instead of Fawn. The pedigree did not come with genotypes, just phenotypes, so I figured Ash out on my own... I think it's still okay to assume he has the same genotype, right?

Zinnia <br /><br /> __________ Mon May 19, 2014 12:50 pm __________ <br /><br /> I mean... A Black buck (assuming self chin) carrying REW, and siring Chocolate couldn't be anything but aaBbcchdcD_Ee, right? Even if his Grandfather is Tort? The difference between a Fawn and Tort (assuming dilute, as it would be easier to mistake for Fawn) is just aa right?

 

[Zass]

fawn, orange, or red (depending on breed lingo) is just chestnut with non-extension, and tort is just self with non-extension.

I'd like to mention that chocolate based torts can look a LOT like fawns. (AKA oranges or reds, depending on your breed lingo)