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BrookeSS

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Got this fella on Saturday. I believed he was a cream or something similar but his parents are labeled as Tort (dad) and Blue (mom) on his pedigree. I’m relatively new to color genetics but I don’t think it’s possible if he is some sort of Agouti like I had thought… Assuming that I am wrong and he’s not a cream, what color would he be considered?

I unfortunately do not have pictures of either parent. But I’m pretty sure his dad is actually a tort, so it may be possible his mom’s color was mislabeled
 

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Got this fella on Saturday. I believed he was a cream or something similar but his parents are labeled as Tort (dad) and Blue (mom) on his pedigree. I’m relatively new to color genetics but I don’t think it’s possible if he is some sort of Agouti like I had thought… Assuming that I am wrong and he’s not a cream, what color would he be considered?

I unfortunately do not have pictures of either parent. But I’m pretty sure his dad is actually a tort, so it may be possible his mom’s color was mislabeled
I believe in angoras, cream refers to a dilute non-extension agouti, aka dilute orange <A_B_C_ddee>. You're right that two selfs (tort + <aaB_C_D_ee> and blue = <aaB_C_ddE_> shouldn't make a cream since they do not have an agouti allele to offer.

I'm thinking he's possibly a blue tort, which is essentially a self cream <aaB_C_ddee>. His off-colored eyes are the most striking thing about him to me and would seem to mark him as a dilute. His orange color is quite rich for a dilute, but that might be related to what looks like a satinized coat. The edging on his ears looks blue, or even lilac, and there does seem to be some shading/smuttiness on his cheeks in the second photo.

Do you have colors on his parents' parents? Is there chocolate in the background?

That's an absolutely beautiful rabbit, by the way! :D
 
I believe in angoras, cream refers to a dilute non-extension agouti, aka dilute orange <A_B_C_ddee>. You're right that two selfs (tort + <aaB_C_D_ee> and blue = <aaB_C_ddE_> shouldn't make a cream since they do not have an agouti allele to offer.

I'm thinking he's possibly a blue tort, which is essentially a self cream <aaB_C_ddee>. His off-colored eyes are the most striking thing about him to me and would seem to mark him as a dilute. His orange color is quite rich for a dilute, but that might be related to what looks like a satinized coat. The edging on his ears looks blue, or even lilac, and there does seem to be some shading/smuttiness on his cheeks in the second photo.

Do you have colors on his parents' parents? Is there chocolate in the background?

That's an absolutely beautiful rabbit, by the way! :D
Paternal grandsire was a blue tort from lynx + unknown background
Paternal granddam was a REW with choc. tort + chestnut background

Maternal grandsire was black self with black + red background
Maternal granddam was cream with cream + blue tort background

So only a bit of chocolate down the lines but quite a lot of agouti
 
Paternal grandsire was a blue tort from lynx + unknown background
Paternal granddam was a REW with choc. tort + chestnut background

Maternal grandsire was black self with black + red background
Maternal granddam was cream with cream + blue tort background

So only a bit of chocolate down the lines but quite a lot of agouti
Ah, so blue or lilac tort is a distinct possibility for your little guy. How old is he? My torts' shading always seemed to darken with age.
 
Ah, so blue or lilac tort is a distinct possibility for your little guy. How old is he? My torts' shading always seemed to darken with age.
He’s about 8 months but I’m not sure how much darker he will get

He was sheared before I got him so the one picture of him in full coat is all I have to go on
It may be easier to confirm his color when he’s regrown his wool
 
Assuming that I am wrong and he’s not a cream, what color would he be considered?
Okay, this is confusing. The eye color does suggest dilute genetics, as it is paler than the accepted dark brown eye for full color dense rabbits. The head seems very reddish, which would be supported by you saying that there was tort and red in the pedigree. High rufus (red) for some reason goes hand in hand with chocolate, and the cheeks look very chocolate based to me (lilac is dilute chocolate). Neither the rufus nor chocolate looks dilute. The body coat is pale, but that is not uncommon in angoras that are sheared.
1689648677362.png
It looks like there is white behind the ears, inside the ears, and around the eyes, as well as near the belly, which would suggest agouti. While there is a lilac tint to the ears, it seems very pale around the edge of the ear. Compare this to the tort photo below.
1689649784660.png
What color is the belly? Selfs like tort or black or chocolate have colored bellies, agouti tend towards white bellies (with high rufus, they could have a red tinge). I keep seeing chocolate tint to the fiber, which would suggest a chocolate agouti, the eyes suggest lilac agouti, which is lynx. Lynx is famous for having an overall fawn/cream look to it, although even my chocolate agouti do as well. I wouldn't say the color overall looks lynx, though.

This is an awful photo, but it's a chocolate agouti English Angora immediately after removing the molting fiber, Note the reddish tinge on the face, and the white inside the ears, like yours.
1689648385114.png
This is a young chocolate agouti, he was all chocolate at birth, with the white inner ears and light belly:
1689649248619.png
This is a half Satin, half English Angora tort.
1689649476358.png
 
@judymac is right, he does appear to have eye circles of an agouti, and he does look a lot like her photo of a chocolate agouti. That eye color, though... and I can't think how a tort and a blue could give you an agouti, or what the blue could have been instead, to produce an agouti.

But now I am seeing some other details I didn't notice before, like these variations in color on his feet, ears, and head. Do either of you see stripes or patches, or am I imagining it, or being fooled by wool and satin sheen?
Inkedangora foot.jpg

Inkedangora ears.jpg
Inkedyoung angora ears.jpg
Inkedangora head and ears.jpg

The other thing is the distinct break between orange and cream/white on his back. Is that an artifact of shearing or is he a broken?
Inkedsheared angora.jpg
 
I do wanna point out his eyes are kinda light colored so I feel like that might indicate more of a dilute color

Didn’t notice this was already said 🫢
 
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I think those spots you pointed out are just a bit longer because of an uneven shear but I will check it when I get home
 
Yes, this really is a common artifact of shearing. When you see the new hairs emerge from the skin, most of the color will be near the tips, it pales as the fiber gets longer and longer. While the Holy Grail of angoras is to have even color from tip to skin, it can be difficult to obtain. Some rabbits will go down to pure white at the base, as is apparently the case with this rabbit. Where the new coat has emerged from the skin, you can see the darker color and the rings, which is what I believe you are seeing on the back of the neck (the most common place for it to molt completely out and start again with new hair) and on the feet (which don't grow long hair on French or Satin Angora). Since the points on Satin & French Angora are free of long hair, the color is always darker there.
But now I am seeing some other details I didn't notice before, like these variations in color on his feet, ears, and head. Do either of you see stripes or patches, or am I imagining it, or being fooled by wool and satin sheen?
Yes, I've been looking at those spots as well, but I really think, with the exception of the big chocolate spot on the right of the face, that this is just the agouti banding of the hair. My camera is currently AWOL, so I can't take a new photo of a Satin Angora in chocolate agouti, but I have an old photo showing the banding on an English Angora. Notice the similarity in the color changes between this coat and the colors seen on the feet. except the colors are more washed out on the feet, which would be in line with the idea that this is a dilute rabbit--lilac instead of chocolate.
1689693096122.png
The chocolate splotch on the right of the face (the rabbit's left) does leave me confused. It just doesn't seem to mesh with any of the other things I see.
1689693663277.png
Okay, I've re-looked at everything, and have a wild and crazy idea. The eyes say 'dilute'. The fiber could certainly be lilac, which would explain the chocolate tint. The head says 'high rufus', which affects chocolate & the dilute lilac, and can be very confusing. It usually expresses itself at the head and the tips of the fiber. The eye rings and white belly say 'agouti', but looking at the main body fiber, it just looks plain lilac. Could we be looking at a high rufus lilac otter? Or is this just a very smutty fawn, or a rabbit with harlequin in the background. . .????
His belly is white
Okay, tort or self would have a dark belly. With the eye rings and white belly, that means we are either dealing with agouti or the tan gene (otter, too much rufus to be marten). Do you still have the fiber that was sheared off the rabbit, and if so, can you pull out an inch or so thick lock of it, stretch it out and put it on a different colored background and take a photo? If this is the tan gene, the fiber will look like a self lilac--with darker lilac at the tips and paler lilac as it goes down the hairshaft, probably going to white near the bottom, based on the color of the remaining sheared hair. There shouldn't be any of the yellowish fawn/cream colors in the middle of the hairshaft, which a lilac agouti (lynx) would have. If you look at the chocolate agouti photos above, you'll see the banding--chocolate on the tips, then fawn (the yellowish tint), then a paler chocolate shade they call 'dove'. If you have an otter, there will be no fawn in the middle of the hairshaft.
 

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