Chinchilla Rex at last!!

[judymac]

So he is a self black chin?

A black self chin looks just like any other black. The only difference you might see is in the eyes, which could be normal brown, or anything from light steel gray to startling blue, or mottled.

The kits above are both from the same litter, both parents are chins. The left kit is a black chin, the one on the right is a black self chin. Both were born jet black, but the left kit had a light belly, inner ears and eye rings, while the kit on the right was born with black belly and no agouti markings.

Your kit does not seem to be jet black, the color seems more sepia, which does seem to have some sort of sable background. Sable (seal is double sable) is recessive to chin, and dominant over Californian/Himalayan/pointed white and albino red (ruby) eyed white (REW). What other colors are in the pedigree?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Is that what I have here?

Dam is REW and sire is Chin. So he is a self black chin? But they look like seals? I’m learning so much…

Yeah, actually given what @Julie Stade has posted about rex-coated self chins, it could very well be! And that would explain why it looked more like a seal than a sable.

Here's the thread where she helped a lot of us out:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/self-chin-or.37355/#post-362911

 

[Ehdeedee]

And that would explain why it looked more like a seal than a sable.

That’s what has me so confused. He’s really dark grey - more like a seal - but he can’t be because of the REW.

What other colors are in the pedigree?

To the best of my knowledge, Sire is mostly chin background with some REW. The breeder does have himalayans, but said nothing about it being in his background. Dam is unknown. They are both from reputable breeders, but purchased without pedigrees because I thought I wouldn’t care. Lol. I was wrong.

The Sire didn’t produce any REW when bred to one, so he doesn’t carry it. But he did produce this guy, two blues, three squirrel, and five Chins.

 

[Julie Stade]

Is that what I have here?
View attachment 42469
Dam is REW and sire is Chin. So he is a self black chin? But they look like seals? I’m learning so much…

It's hard to say from just one shot/angle, but that's sort of how our fake seals start out. If both parents carry the self recessive (a) and black (B), then it's certainly possible that you ended up with the cchd from dad and a c from mom to let it express itself as self-black chin on a Rex coat.

 

[Alaska Satin]

That’s what has me so confused. He’s really dark grey - more like a seal - but he can’t be because of the REW.

To the best of my knowledge, Sire is mostly chin background with some REW. The breeder does have himalayans, but said nothing about it being in his background. Dam is unknown. They are both from reputable breeders, but purchased without pedigrees because I thought I wouldn’t care. Lol. I was wrong.

The Sire didn’t produce any REW when bred to one, so he doesn’t carry it. But he did produce this guy, two blues, three squirrel, and five Chins.

If you still have the breeders' contact info, they might be willing to sell you the pedigrees after the fact. I have done so many times, usually for a nominal fee because I like to encourage people to keep pedigrees on their own rabbits.

You should also be able to work backwards to figure out your rabbits' genotypes with enough trial breedings, which I imagine is what you're doing now.

Side note: just because he didn't produce any REWs with a REW doe doesn't guarantee he does not carry <c>. If he produced all chinchilla (including self chin) kits, he might be <c(chd)c(chd)>, or it might just have been the luck of the draw. I've had it happen. However, if he has produced a sable (or a himi), that would tell you definitively what he had in the second place on that C locus.

 

[judymac]

Yeah, actually given what @Julie Stade has posted about rex-coated self chins, it could very well be! And that would explain why it looked more like a seal than a sable.

Here's the thread where she helped a lot of us out:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/self-chin-or.37355/#post-362911

Fascinating. Here I thought that the angora gene was the only one that really messed with the colors, thanks so much for adding this.

 

[Ehdeedee]

It's hard to say from just one shot/angle, but that's sort of how our fake seals start out. If both parents carry the self recessive (a) and black (B), then it's certainly possible that you ended up with the cchd from dad and a c from mom to let it express itself as self-black chin on a Rex coat.

Yes, I’m sure both parents carry the (B) and the (a) genes by what the litter is. The here is a few more pictures of the black and his littermates who are blues, but also appear to have faint seal marks. They didn’t always though. They started out looking like regular blues and black. This shading is new.

 

[Julie Stade]

Fascinating. Here I thought that the angora gene was the only one that really messed with the colors, thanks so much for adding this.

I know I saw a number of Chocolates get DQed in Youth at the Rex National this year for their eye color being off, and the judge suggested at one point that they might be genetic self-chocolate Chins. So I'm still trying to figure out all the phenotypes an expressed cchd can mimic on self-colored Rex fur.