Can you tell what color this charlie is?

[ida1416]

So I was given this lionhead buck. Hes a charlie which I'm gonna breed to my solid does (to avoid making more charlies). Hes tiny and very compact which will improve my lines a lot. It a fun puzzle to think about what color he might be. Theres definitely some type of agouti or chinchilla at play due to the ear lining and you can just see under his nose theres a white lining too. Hes got a dusting of darker brown hairs all over his back and around his eyes, as well as his ears and the classic charlie mustache. Hes got very dark brown eyes with a ruby cast. Any guesses based on the limited amount of color visible? Just for fun. We will see what colors he produces soon enough.

 

[tambayo]

I have had a false charlie with few markings, but that one did have some spots on the back. From what i see there is no spots on the body, just color on ears and nose?
Wonder if he really is broken?

 

[ida1416]

I have had a false charlie with few markings, but that one did have some spots on the back. From what i see there is no spots on the body, just color on ears and nose?
Wonder if he really is broken?

Youre right! Genetically he may or may not be a charlie, and that will be clear after a few breedings are done. If hes a charlie he will he unable to produce solid kits even with a solid doe. So we will just have to wait and see!

 

[ladysown]

looks opal to me.

 

[Alaska Satin]

So I was given this lionhead buck. Hes a charlie which I'm gonna breed to my solid does (to avoid making more charlies). Hes tiny and very compact which will improve my lines a lot. It a fun puzzle to think about what color he might be. Theres definitely some type of agouti or chinchilla at play due to the ear lining and you can just see under his nose theres a white lining too. Hes got a dusting of darker brown hairs all over his back and around his eyes, as well as his ears and the classic charlie mustache. Hes got very dark brown eyes with a ruby cast. Any guesses based on the limited amount of color visible? Just for fun. We will see what colors he produces soon enough.

I'd say sable chin <A_B_cchl_ D_E_> or maybe even smoke pearl chin, <A_B_cchl_ dd E_>. Ear linings and nostril marking are white, so not opal or otter; and there seems to be some ticking on the nose spots and maybe the ears, so not marten. The dusting across his back - I think I can see it in the last photo - is a bit mystifying to me. Usually that's ermine (non-extension chinchilla or squirrel <A_B_cchd_??ee>), but they don't usually have such dark ears. But your description of "dark brown" color makes me think sable again, as does the ruby cast in his eyes.

What colors are the does he bred ?

 

[ida1416]

I'd say sable chin <A_B_cchl_ D_E_> or maybe even smoke pearl chin, <A_B_cchl_ dd E_>. Ear linings and nostril marking are white, so not opal or otter; and there seems to be some ticking on the nose spots and maybe the ears, so not marten. The dusting across his back - I think I can see it in the last photo - is a bit mystifying to me. Usually that's ermine (non-extension chinchilla or squirrel <A_B_cchd_??ee>), but they don't usually have such dark ears. But your description of "dark brown" color makes me think sable again, as does the ruby cast in his eyes.

What colors are the does he bred ?

So far hes not been bred to anyone as hes been settling in. But I'm going to start with my solid smoke pearl doe as soon as they are both ready. That may make it hard to determine if he has sable or not...how might that work out if he does carry it? I'll take another picture later of the dusting on his back and face as it is very interesting.

 

[Alaska Satin]

So far hes not been bred to anyone as hes been settling in. But I'm going to start with my solid smoke pearl doe as soon as they are both ready. That may make it hard to determine if he has sable or not...how might that work out if he does carry it? I'll take another picture later of the dusting on his back and face as it is very interesting.

Sable Chin is an agouti <A_B_cchl_D_E_>
Smoke Pearl Chinchilla is <A_B_cchl_ddE_>
Smoke Pearl is a self <aaB_cchl_ddE_>

If he is a sable chin, that means he's got one copy of the sable allele, as does the doe. Any kit that gets both copies of <cchl> will be a seal (or seal agouti). It's not a sure thing, especially since lionhead litters are usually small, and color prediction is a statistical thing, but it's reasonably likely. If he is sable chin, you will probably also get himi or REW, since those are the only alleles that sable chins and smoke pearls can carry at the second C locus. Also, you will not get any chinchilla or full-color kits out of sable x smoke pearl.

If he is not sable chin but rather chinchilla, at least some of the bunnies will probably be chinchilla, due to his chin <cchd> overpowering the doe's <cchl>. (I don't think you're going to get any full-color kits because the doe can't make them and he seems to be lacking any tan, so he's almost surely either chin or sable.) You may still get seal chins if he just happens to carry sable in the second position at the C-locus, or you may get sable chins if he carries himi <ch> or REW <c>.

If he's a smoke pearl chinchilla, both he and the doe are dilutes, so the entire litter will be dilute colors. So you'll get some combination of blue seals (probably some agouti), smoke pearls (again probably some agouti), blue himis and/or REW.

Other colors depend on what he and/or the doe carry in the second position at the A, B, and E loci. You may get self seals or sables rather than chins, chocolate versions of the varieties, pointed colors or sable frosties.

I'm inclined to think he's sable chin due to the sprinkling of ticking and the brownish hue to his color, but he could be blue seal agouti (which is a tricky color to identify since it tends to look like a slightly off-colored blue or dark smoke pearl, and he obviously has very litte color to go on). If he is a blue seal agouti, you will get only dilute seals and sables (or pointed or frosty versions of those), since all the kits will get a sable allele from him, and they will get either a sable, himi or REW allele from the doe, depending on what she carries in the second place at the C locus.
Seal Agouti is <A_B_cchl cchl D_E_>
Blue Seal Agouti is <A_B_cchl cchl dd E_>

Clear as mud? But fun!

 

[ida1416]

Sable Chin is an agouti <A_B_cchl_D_E_>
Smoke Pearl Chinchilla is <A_B_cchl_ddE_>
Smoke Pearl is a self <aaB_cchl_ddE_>

If he is a sable chin, that means he's got one copy of the sable allele, as does the doe. Any kit that gets both copies of <cchl> will be a seal (or seal agouti). It's not a sure thing, especially since lionhead litters are usually small, and color prediction is a statistical thing, but it's reasonably likely. If he is sable chin, you will probably also get himi or REW, since those are the only alleles that sable chins and smoke pearls can carry at the second C locus. Also, you will not get any chinchilla or full-color kits out of sable x smoke pearl.

If he is not sable chin but rather chinchilla, at least some of the bunnies will probably be chinchilla, due to his chin <cchd> overpowering the doe's <cchl>. (I don't think you're going to get any full-color kits because the doe can't make them and he seems to be lacking any tan, so he's almost surely either chin or sable.) You may still get seal chins if he just happens to carry sable in the second position at the C-locus, or you may get sable chins if he carries himi <ch> or REW <c>.

If he's a smoke pearl chinchilla, both he and the doe are dilutes, so the entire litter will be dilute colors. So you'll get some combination of blue seals (probably some agouti), smoke pearls (again probably some agouti), blue himis and/or REW.

Other colors depend on what he and/or the doe carry in the second position at the A, B, and E loci. You may get self seals or sables rather than chins, chocolate versions of the varieties, pointed colors or sable frosties.

I'm inclined to think he's sable chin due to the sprinkling of ticking and the brownish hue to his color, but he could be blue seal agouti (which is a tricky color to identify since it tends to look like a slightly off-colored blue or dark smoke pearl, and he obviously has very litte color to go on). If he is a blue seal agouti, you will get only dilute seals and sables (or pointed or frosty versions of those), since all the kits will get a sable allele from him, and they will get either a sable, himi or REW allele from the doe, depending on what she carries in the second place at the C locus.
Seal Agouti is <A_B_cchl cchl D_E_>
Blue Seal Agouti is <A_B_cchl cchl dd E_>

Clear as mud? But fun!

I thought this would be a fun little game for us color nerds. I wonder if I would like a sable agouti or sable chin lionhead. Colors always look different on them than most other breeds. I'm not even very familiar with what a sable agouti or chin look like. I have been told just a poorly marked chinchilla? Anyone have pictures of that color?

 

[Alaska Satin]

I thought this would be a fun little game for us color nerds. I wonder if I would like a sable agouti or sable chin lionhead. Colors always look different on them than most other breeds. I'm not even very familiar with what a sable agouti or chin look like. I have been told just a poorly marked chinchilla? Anyone have pictures of that color?

Sable agouti and sable chin are two names for the same color <A_B_cchl_D_E_>. I think some use "sable chinchilla" because the sable gene was originally called "chinchilla light" (hence, cchl). In any case, it's the shaded/sable gene (not the chinchilla dark <cchd>) along with an agouti <A>, which gives it agouti markings on its nose, ears, belly, feet, etc.

There are photos of lionhead colors on this site:
Lionhead Rabbit - Colors and Varieties, Agouti

And yes, the colors do look quite different, even compared to angoras. However, I'm not sure how confident I am in the colors as shown. The image for sable agouti is so dark and lacking in shading, it makes me suspect it might be a seal agouti. The two chocolate chinchillas looks substantially different from each other, and the chocolate agouti (at the bottom) doesn't look right either. Maybe they switched the chocolate agouti (last photo) and the chocolate chinchilla on the top line, with each other? Or maybe my computer screen is just lying - it does that from time to time.

Here's an excellent resource for colors on normal coats... it's really well-organized, and quite through, so includes a lot of unusual colors like sable chin, etc:
http://gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml

 

[ida1416]

Sable agouti and sable chin are two names for the same color <A_B_cchl_D_E_>. I think some use "sable chinchilla" because the sable gene was originally called "chinchilla light" (hence, cchl). In any case, it's the shaded/sable gene (not the chinchilla dark <cchd>) along with an agouti <A>, which gives it agouti markings on its nose, ears, belly, feet, etc.

There are photos of lionhead colors on this site:
Lionhead Rabbit - Colors and Varieties, Agouti

And yes, the colors do look quite different, even compared to angoras. However, I'm not sure how confident I am in the colors as shown. The image for sable agouti is so dark and lacking in shading, it makes me suspect it might be a seal agouti. The two chocolate chinchillas looks substantially different from each other, and the chocolate agouti (at the bottom) doesn't look right either. Maybe they switched the chocolate agouti (last photo) and the chocolate chinchilla on the top line, with each other? Or maybe my computer screen is just lying - it does that from time to time.

Here's an excellent resource for colors on normal coats... it's really well-organized, and quite through, so includes a lot of unusual colors like sable chin, etc:
http://gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml

Yeah I've seen that resource before and it's not my favorite, I think in most breeds and colors it's good to have multiple pictures cause theres always variation. Thanks for clearing up that sable agouti and chin are the same I felt like they were but I wasnt sure. I guess the only way to find out will be to try out some breedings! Chinchilla lionheads arent showable currently but my pet customers love fun unique colors. Theyre also constantly accepting new varieties to show so who knows what the future holds. My ultimate goal is to get more showable colors but that's gonna be hard to do if agouti and chinchilla get involved with sable, right? It's a work in progress. I'm also beginning a harlequin/tri-color lionhead program this year as they are in high demand as pets and I am personally obsessed with harlequin colors.

 

[Alaska Satin]

My ultimate goal is to get more showable colors but that's gonna be hard to do if agouti and chinchilla get involved with sable, right? It's a work in progress.

Chinchilla shouldn't be a problem for sable. A chinchilla <cchd> can carry sable <cchl>, but if you've got a sable, you know it can't carry chinchilla, since sable is recessive to chin. Again, "sable chin" isn't really chinchilla. I do have some suspicions that a recessive sable allele hiding in a chinchilla can muddy the chin color a little, but I haven't done any testing to be sure about that. And since you're not going to be breeding chinchillas for show any time soon, that's probably not an issue anyway.

Agouti, being dominant, is pretty easy to get rid of since it can't hide. Unless he's homozygous for agouti (which seems unlikely since all recognized and COD lionhead varieties are selfs other than the REWs and BEWs, which genetically could be anything) you might have a few unshowable agoutis in the first generation, but if you only breed the self F1s, all you'll get are selfs in the F2 and all succeeding generations.

So if your little mystery Charlie Agouti has so much to offer in terms of size and type, I'd say go for it.

I'm also beginning a harlequin/tri-color lionhead program this year as they are in high demand as pets and I am personally obsessed with harlequin colors.

This is where the agouti will be an asset, not to mention his charlie status. Proper harlequins and tris are agoutis. If you breed your selfs with your harlies, you'll get torted harlies and tris; but with your agouti charlie buck, you should get tris in the first litter if you can find a harlie doe for him!

The sable gene won't be so helpful, because sooner or later that will probably make sable magpies, but they'll be pretty anyway!

As you said, work in progress...

 

[ida1416]

Sorry it took a minute but here are some pictures with the flash on to show the interesting-ness!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Sorry it took a minute but here are some pictures with the flash on to show the interesting-ness!

Ahh, yes - those are the spots of a broken colored or charlie rabbit.

It still looks like a cchl charlie, but now I'd lean toward sable point agouti, aka frosty <AaB_cchl_D_ee>, or maybe smoke pearl agouti <AaB_cchl_ddE_>.

Frosties have that sprinkled look, with a haze or "veil" of color on their bodies and sometimes slightly darker points. This is a frosty, image from Coat Color Photo Matrix


Sable or smoke pearl point agouti can vary a lot in the darkness/lightness of their body color, although I might expect the tail marking to be darker compared to the spine marking if it was a pointed color. Here are two versions of sable point, one typical and one with dark body color, and a smoke pearl agouti for comparison. The first two are selfs, so no agouti markings, but imagine them with pale ear/nose linings and broken white covering most of them. The first image is GBF's Brimstone at 6-months from English Angoras, second is my daughter's sable point doe, Sleeping Beauty, third is from Coat Color Photo Matrix

This is such a fun puzzle - I can't wait to hear what he produces!

I'm not even very familiar with what a sable agouti or chin look like. I have been told just a poorly marked chinchilla? Anyone have pictures of that color?

To me they look like chinchillas that are a bit off-colored - kind of brassy or muddy. There are two photos of sable agouti (aka sable chinchilla) in the Agouti Pattern section on the Green Barn Farm site Coat Color Photo Matrix. The second photo is a lot lighter than ones I've seen.

 

[ida1416]

Interesting happenings! This Charlie who's color we were debating was crossed with my solid smoke pearl doe and the babies are not boring! Quite a few interesting things, including two that look distinctly..harlequin...which would be strange. Maybe the charlie is sable magpie based or something? Otherwise maybe they are just interesting brokens...but they are all beautiful babies either way and I cant wait to see how their colors come in!