Can I use Jane or John to get ...

[MKirst]

If I wanted to breed to get broken reds and blacks - can I still use Jane or John ? I was thinking last night what colors I wanted to focus on - but this genetic stuff is too confusing to me still.

I really like the rabbits that have 3 colors - white, red and black markings, the solid red rabbits, solid black rabbits, broken black rabbits and broken red rabbits.

If I wanted to breed to get these colored rabbits what do I have to breed Jane with and what do I have to breed John with - to eventually get any of the above ?

If I breed John to Jane what will I get ? Anyone know ?

Here is Jane and John.

 

[skysthelimit]

You won't know what they carry unless you have a pedigree and really until you breed. First, if bred to each other, both of them has to carrying the tricolor, red, or black genes. Not impossible but unlikely, when it comes to tricolor. Since neither one is tricolor, black, red or broken, you need to breed them to a rabbit that has those genes, if they produce in the first generation you're good to go, if not you breed back to the color you want. Except broken, you can breed broken to either one and get brokens the first generation.

 

[Disney]

It may take you 2 generations to get what you want so you might have to wait a little but first..

Let's look at what we got here and break it in pieces, and look further from there.

John, is a black otter, At_B_C_D_E_
The _ means that we don't know what gene is there, it might be the same gene that is already present (AtBBCCDDEE) But there also might be hidden genes carried (AtaBbCchlDdEej) There are many possibilities, but you won't actually know until you breed him to a doe who also shares the same hidden genes to show it.

Now, John's genotype is pretty dominant so if you put him against a doe with a recessive genotype, like a self lilac tort (aabbCcddee)
Then most of John's hidden genes would show itself and you would know if he either carries dominant genes or surprise you with recessive genes.

So let's say John is AtaBbCchlddEej like i described before, he would be carrying self, chocolate, chinchilla light, dilute, harlequin
And you breed him to thi Lilac tort doe, then you would get these combinations of genotypes
At vs aa = %50 otter and 50$ self

Bb vs bb = 50% black and 50% chocolate

Cchl vs Cc is....
25% CC = fullcolor
25% Cc = fullcolor carrying rew
25% Cchl = fullcolor carrying chinchilla light gene, sable point, siamese sable?
25% sable carrying rew

Dd vs dd = 50% dark color, either black or chocolate and 50% dilute color, either blue or lilac

Eej vs ee is..
50% Ee = fullextension carrying tort (non extension)
50% eje = harlequin carrying non extension (tort)
Why does harlequin show up out of 2 parents who doesn't show anything of the harlequin gene?
Well.. John was described as a (Eej) full extension carrying harlequin.
Full extension allows the color in the hair shaft to show fully, whereas non extension cuts it off and leaves poor color
You'll understand if you compare a normal full black rabbit to a black tort, they are basically the same genotype but they have 1 difference.
Where black is full extension (EE) and shows full color, non-extension (ee) ignores the black and leaves a brownish rabbit with black shading on the muzzle, ears, sides, legs..
So back to John.. he was carrying harlequin underneath the full-extension.. but how did the harlequin get out of there and pop out?
The doe's (ee) non extension gene did that, harlequin is more dominant to tort and when they both meet, harlequin shows itself and hides tort.
So full extension hides harlequin + tort, and harlequin hides only tort.. tort doesn't hide anything since it's the most recessive on the E-locus.

So if you combine all of these genes than you might of get these colors on your kits
Black/chocolate/blue/lilac otter
Black/chocolate/blue/lilac self
Black/chocolate/blue/lilac sable point
Black/chocolate/blue/lilac harlequin
Black/chocolate/blue/lilac magpie (harlequin + chinchilla gene, washes the brown out and leaves black and white rabbit)
Black/chocolate/blue/lilac Otter harlequins ( i honestly never heard of this one, i don't even know if it exist but the possibility is there)
Black/chocolate/blue/lilac Martens (otter + chinchilla gene makes a marten i think, never looked up on this)

So.. and this only an example of what surprise you can get with a recessive colored harlequin tort doe, LOL

Now focusing on Jane.. she is a chestnut, the most dominant color except for steel
She is a A_B_C_D_E_ and like i said before.. there can be 2 dominant genes but there can also be a recessive gene hidden.

So if you would breed John to Jane, based on their appearance alone, there is only chesnut what you could except since chestnut is dominant to otter. But if Jane were to carry otter (Aat) then you'd get chestnuts and otter. If Jane would carry self you would get chestnuts, otters and maybe self if John carries it too. Self must be carried by both parents in oder to get self kits.
And this was only the A-locus, you can get many variations if you count the BCDE too.

But you said you wanted solid blacks, solid reds, broken black, broken reds and broken harlequins (tricolor)
For solid black you need both Jane and John to carry self (aa) black is aaB_C_D_E
For solid red you need them both to carry non extension (ee) red is A_B_C_Dee
For broken you need another broken rabbit and one or both of the above
For harlequin you need on of them to carry harlequin and the other needs to carry non extension OR both should carry harlequin
For tricolor you need the harlequin + the broken gene combined

I hope this was any help..

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I hope this was any help..

Somebody get me an aspirin! :doc:

 

[Disney]

I hope this was any help..

Somebody get me an aspirin! :doc:

sawry lol :lol:

 

[MamaSheepdog]

It's okay... I only read part of it, so I am not that bad off yet. When I am feeling brave, I will read the entire post.

 

[ZRabbits]

Disney, I'm in awe. The more I read explanations like yours, the more the genetics sink in. It definitely helped me.

Karen

 

[Disney]

It's okay... I only read part of it, so I am not that bad off yet. When I am feeling brave, I will read the entire post.

That's okay, hihi :up:

Disney, I'm in awe. The more I read explanations like yours, the more the genetics sink in. It definitely helped me.

Karen

Awh i'm smiling now, i just want to be of use and share my knowledge with you.. makes me feel like a good person, thank you Karen

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Disney,

it was really nice of you to go into such detail in answering Kirst's question. We all appreciate it, even if it makes our heads hurt. :lol:

 

[MKirst]

Humm ok, so then I need to get a harlequin tort doe and a broken red or red for John ?

The reason I ask is because the Lebanon Valley Expo Center has the Area Fair going on right now and today I went to see the rabbits at the rabbit show. I was told there is a live small animal auction Thursday night at 6:00pm and I can buy rabbits then .. they say really cheap some go for.

http://www.lebanonareafair.com/

I plan on going early to get a good look at the rabbits going up for auction and want to have exactly the rabbit I want in mind - then just bid till I get that rabbit.

Does anyone have a good picture of a harlequin tort I can see ? I know what red and broken red look like .. not sure I know what harlequin tort looks like though.

Thanks for the detailed info Disney - I appreciate it much and will put to good use.

 

[ZRabbits]

Did a search and found this website. If you go halfway down the page there is a Black Tort Harlequin. You can see the tort on the feet.

http://www.freewebs.com/revsrabbits/colors.htm

Hope this helps. And good luck with the auction. Hope you find what you want.

Karen

 

[Disney]

Humm ok, so then I need to get a harlequin tort doe and a broken red or red for John ?

The reason I ask is because the Lebanon Valley Expo Center has the Area Fair going on right now and today I went to see the rabbits at the rabbit show. I was told there is a live small animal auction Thursday night at 6:00pm and I can buy rabbits then .. they say really cheap some go for.

http://www.lebanonareafair.com/

I plan on going early to get a good look at the rabbits going up for auction and want to have exactly the rabbit I want in mind - then just bid till I get that rabbit.

Does anyone have a good picture of a harlequin tort I can see ? I know what red and broken red look like .. not sure I know what harlequin tort looks like though.

Thanks for the detailed info Disney - I appreciate it much and will put to good use.

No not harlequin tort, a rabbit is either harlequin or tort, can't be both.
We don't know what John is carrying, could be EE, Eej, Ee
If he carries Harlequin (Eej) and you breed him to a doe who carries harlequin, or a doe who is either harlequin or tort then you have the possibility of getting harlequin kits.
Harlequin only shows up when it is ejej or eje
In order to get ejej, both parents must carry ej
For eje you need one parent carrying harlequin and the other parent to carry tort
You need to get rid of the full extension (EE) gene when breeding harlequins, full extension hides harlequin.

So if you find a harlequin doe, get her, she will be of good use.
If not, a tort doe.
No full extension doe's as in solid black/blue whatever, just harlequin or tort.

You need the broken gene, so any broken or charlie doe will be useful for you, try to look for a broken red, broken tort, or broken harlequin (tricolor)

I will look for pictures now and post them in a bit to show you what you need to look for, brb<br /><br />__________ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:00 pm __________<br /><br />

Did a search and found this website. If you go halfway down the page there is a Black Tort Harlequin. You can see the tort on the feet.

http://www.freewebs.com/revsrabbits/colors.htm

Hope this helps. And good luck with the auction. Hope you find what you want.

Karen

A torted harlequin is actually a self harlequin, they are called torted because of their shading who resemblances a tort.
Harlequin are most desired as agouti where they show better markings, self harlequins are avoided.

 

[ZRabbits]

Thanks so much Disney for giving an explanation of what I posted, definitely been an education on this thread.

Hope you post the pics. Now truly interested and learning a lot. Don't have harlequins, but do have tort and broken which I will be breeding in October.

Karen

 

[Disney]

Any of these would be what you are looking for

blue tort aaB_C_ddee

Very poor black tort, she lacks shading on her sides and legs

Tricolor doe,

Orange doe

Harlequin

broken chocolate harlequin (tricolor)

and ofcourse.. my little vienna marked harlequin, :lol: i'd give him to you if you lived closer

 

[skysthelimit]

If you are looking for a tort in standard Rex, that's not going to be an easy find for tort or harlequin, because neither one is a recognized standard rex color. Though I believe Caroline says she has had some torts in her standards, and there is a breeder in Wisc that has some tri color standards. It's easy to find torts in minis. You can get a Red much easier than a tort or tricolor/harlie.

 

[trinityoaks]

Somebody get me an aspirin! :doc:

I know, right? :twilightzone: :stars: : :surrender2:<br /><br />__________ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:11 pm __________<br /><br />

If you are looking for a tort in standard Rex, that's not going to be an easy find for tort or harlequin, because neither one is a recognized standard rex color.

I would SO love to get a tricolor tort or harlie Standard Rex!! What sorts of color lines do I need to look for in order to have a chance at getting that from a breeding?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

MamaSheepdog wrote:
Somebody get me an aspirin! :doc:

I know, right? :twilightzone: :stars: : :surrender2:

I'm glad somebody understands! You are definitely on the road trip itinerary...

 

[MKirst]

Thank you Disney for all your expertise.

So, I'm looking for black tort, blue tort, tricolor, orange, harlequin, broken chocolate harlequin and a broken or charlie.

Should I specifically be looking for does or do you have a suggestion what sex of any of the above mentioned ?

I was thinking last night maybe I should just breed Jane to John and see what becomes of them. So, this morning at dawn I put Jane in Johns cage and all she does is run circles flickin' her tail around, jumping over him acting like a nut. Jack did try, going threw all the motions when he did catch her, but he was too far up her back. So I dunno if they even know what they are doing yet.

I will try again at dusk.

This is so exciting !!

 

[OneAcreFarm]

MamaSheepdog wrote:
Somebody get me an aspirin! :doc:

I know, right? :twilightzone: :stars: : :surrender2:

I'm glad somebody understands! You are definitely on the road trip itinerary...

Trinity is basically right down the road from me! She is a DEFINITE for the road trip. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Disney]

Thank you Disney for all your expertise.

So, I'm looking for black tort, blue tort, tricolor, orange, harlequin, broken chocolate harlequin and a broken or charlie.

Should I specifically be looking for does or do you have a suggestion what sex of any of the above mentioned ?

I was thinking last night maybe I should just breed Jane to John and see what becomes of them. So, this morning at dawn I put Jane in Johns cage and all she does is run circles flickin' her tail around, jumping over him acting like a nut. Jack did try, going threw all the motions when he did catch her, but he was too far up her back. So I dunno if they even know what they are doing yet.

I will try again at dusk.

This is so exciting !!

Hihi, no problem, i'm glad i'm able to help!!

You are looking for tort, harlequin, orange and any kind of these 3 in broken pattern. whether they are black or blue based doesn't matter. The chocolate was just a extra to show its difference, harlequin can look different with any breed, you don't need to look for chocolate specifically.

Sex doesn't really matter, depends on what you prefer and who you would like to breed them to.

So this is what you would like to get
Blue tort
Black tort
Broken blue tort
Broken black tort
Orange
Broken orange
Harlequin
Broken harlequin (tricolor)

When breeding, you might want to hold Jane down to encourage John to check her out. Her going nuts can throw him off.
The more you put them together, the more he will be motivated to do the job.
Young bucks tend to be nervous with their first dates, but he'll eventually get the hang of it and turn into a breeding machines. :mrgreen: