Breeding out a breed?

[KelleyBee]

Is it possible through a certain amount of generations to breed out a breed from a mixed rabbit? I have NZ/Cal mixed rabbits. I would like to go in reverse and have as close to pure Californians and New Zealands if possible. Can I do this with my herd through selection, i.e. correct black calif markings bred to correct black calif markings and correct looking REWs bred to correct REWs? I know other features aside from the coat would also need to be present: size, correct commercial body structure, healthy eyes, ears, teeth, etc. It's something I keep wondering about and would like to know if it is possible.

Thank you to those in the know who are willing to educate the rest of us!

 

[ladysown]

yes.

 

[KelleyBee]

yes.

So, this makes sense to me. But I am wondering how many generations it would take. Any idea?

 

[ladysown]

well, I don't know. Rabbits are judged by how they look, not what makes them up. So when they look like they are supposed to then you'll have achieved your goal. The more pure looking stock you use, the sooner you will reach your goal.

 

[KelleyBee]

well, I don't know. Rabbits are judged by how they look, not what makes them up. So when they look like they are supposed to then you'll have achieved your goal. The more pure looking stock you use, the sooner you will reach your goal.

Hmm. Ok. I’ll chew on that!

 

[arachyd]

It's what ladysown said. They aren't considered a specific variety based on a pedigree. It's conforming to the breed standard that makes them one breed or another.

 

[eco2pia]

In my experience, if the "mutt" falls off the pedigree at the 3rd generation or so, that is also often considered a threshold of animals bred back to breed standard, at least with nz I think. Obviously the showing and registration status may be different by breed, not sure about that, but I believe I was able to breed back to registered stock and eventually the kits were themselves registerable. Always seemed a little crazy to me.

 

[hotzcatz]

It shouldn't take long to breed back to NZ whites, since those are all REWs aren't they? REW x REW = 100% REW

Isn't a Californian very similar in size and shape to a NZ? If so, then any and all REWs could be called a NZ?

The Californian markings will be more difficult to get, especially if you've got REW in with them. Two REW genes ("cc") will completely cover the Himilayan gene ( "ch" ) needed for the California markings.

The 'California' markings are what is called a 'pointed white' in English angora. Not sure if it has other names in other breeds. Both the REW and the Californian color is from the 'C' gene in the color code. Which is possibly the most complicated gene. There's five possible genes in the C location and they are in a line of which one is more dominant over the others. Here's the list in order of dominance, starting with the most dominant first:

• Any dominant "C" means the color will show up on the rabbit.
• Then next dominant is 'Dark Chinchilla', which is sometimes written out as 'cchd'. Usually, the 'chd' would be written in superscript, but I dunno how to do that here.
• Then the next dominant is 'Light Chinchilla', which is sometimes written out as 'cchl'
• The fourth dominant is the one you're looking for to make the Californian color on your rabbit. It's called 'Himilayan' and is written out as 'ch'. If we had superscript, the 'h' would be raised.
• The least dominant is 'c' which is albino. Two 'cc' genes removes all color from the rabbit.

So, in order to get the Californian markings, you need either two Himilayan 'ch' genes or a Himilayan gene along with an albino 'c' gene. Anything else there will not allow the Californian markings to show up.

Two albino genes, 'cc', at that location in the gene chart will result in an albino rabbit, which is a Ruby Eyed White.

Albino x albino = 100% albino, however, Californian x Californian does NOT always equal Californian.

 

[KelleyBee]

It shouldn't take long to breed back to NZ whites, since those are all REWs aren't they? REW x REW = 100% REW

Isn't a Californian very similar in size and shape to a NZ? If so, then any and all REWs could be called a NZ?

The Californian markings will be more difficult to get, especially if you've got REW in with them. Two REW genes ("cc") will completely cover the Himilayan gene ( "ch" ) needed for the California markings.

The 'California' markings are what is called a 'pointed white' in English angora. Not sure if it has other names in other breeds. Both the REW and the Californian color is from the 'C' gene in the color code. Which is possibly the most complicated gene. There's five possible genes in the C location and they are in a line of which one is more dominant over the others. Here's the list in order of dominance, starting with the most dominant first:

• Any dominant "C" means the color will show up on the rabbit.
• Then next dominant is 'Dark Chinchilla', which is sometimes written out as 'cchd'. Usually, the 'chd' would be written in superscript, but I dunno how to do that here.
• Then the next dominant is 'Light Chinchilla', which is sometimes written out as 'cchl'
• The fourth dominant is the one you're looking for to make the Californian color on your rabbit. It's called 'Himilayan' and is written out as 'ch'. If we had superscript, the 'h' would be raised.
• The least dominant is 'c' which is albino. Two 'cc' genes removes all color from the rabbit.

So, in order to get the Californian markings, you need either two Himilayan 'ch' genes or a Himilayan gene along with an albino 'c' gene. Anything else there will not allow the Californian markings to show up.

Two albino genes, 'cc', at that location in the gene chart will result in an albino rabbit, which is a Ruby Eyed White.

Albino x albino = 100% albino, however, Californian x Californian does NOT always equal Californian.

That’s really helpful. Thank you. At the moment, I have 2kits from the same litter that have very dark California markings. One kit male, the other female. So, I am considering holding on to them and breeding them to each other to see if I can lock in the ch trait. I also have two rews in that litter, again, male and female, and want to lock in the cc by breeding them to each other. I’m thinking the offspring of each of these breedings will produce consistent features of the breeds I am trying to recreate. Am I on the right track?

 

[MnCanary]

This triggered a memory for me. I used to raise pigeons. Even with fancy feathered pigeons like Fantails, cross-breeding different breeds will result in a feral pigeon in 2 or 3 generations. They said that everything we wanted in a pigeon was recessive. That's probably why we could quickly run a breed into the ground with inbreeding or even cross breeding. Rabbits don't seem to be like that.

 

[KelleyBee]

This triggered a memory for me. I used to raise pigeons. Even with fancy feathered pigeons like Fantails, cross-breeding different breeds will result in a feral pigeon in 2 or 3 generations. They said that everything we wanted in a pigeon was recessive. That's probably why we could quickly run a breed into the ground with inbreeding or even cross breeding. Rabbits don't seem to be like that.

So, if I understand what you are saying with regards to pigeons in comparison to rabbits, the pigeon's desirable traits are recessive while the rabbit's desirable traits are dominate?

 

[MnCanary]

So, if I understand what you are saying with regards to pigeons in comparison to rabbits, the pigeon's desirable traits are recessive while the rabbit's desirable traits are dominate?

I don't know the answer to that. A lot of genetics stuff baffles me. I just know that, with pigeons, you could lose a lot of desirable features in a big hurry. And because so much was recessive, breeders would inbreed to try and get a show-winning bird. The results were that quite often a young pigeon that had wonderful attributes was so inbred that it couldn't reproduce or that it got sick easily.

 

[KelleyBee]

Continuing the genetics breeding out question, in my mind it seems more logical to breed a pair of siblings that each look like REW NZ together, rather than breeding the REW male kit back to the original REW mom who is part Calif. Would breeding the siblings give me a more pure result rather than breeding the REW male kit back to the REW mom with Calif genetics in her?

 

[MnCanary]

Continuing the genetics breeding out question, in my mind it seems more logical to breed a pair of siblings that each look like REW NZ together, rather than breeding the REW male kit back to the original REW mom who is part Calif. Would breeding the siblings give me a more pure result rather than breeding the REW male kit back to the REW mom with Calif genetics in her?

I don't know, but I'd like to learn the answer. I have observed that rabbits seem resistant (but probably not immune) to inbreeding problems, but that is only an observation. I'm sure a couple of scientists could spend their entire career on this and still not have the entire story. I'd love to see the ARBA sponsor some actual research on rabbits.

 

[EnglishSpot]

Once you start breeding siblings, you have to cull hard for the undesirable traits. When I was in NZRs, I could only do an occasional sibling cross without many of the desired traits (color, conformation) falling apart. You don't want three out the four grandparents to have bad shoulders in their genetics.

 

[KelleyBee]

Once you start breeding siblings, you have to cull hard for the undesirable traits. When I was in NZRs, I could only do an occasional sibling cross without many of the desired traits (color, conformation) falling apart. You don't want three out the four grandparents to have bad shoulders in their genetics.

Yes, I am learning about how important culling is and am beginning to cross that bridge in an effort to improve the herds for which I am caring. Thank you for your insight.

 

[SixGun]

In the beginning, anything not Himalayan marked is a NZW (New Zealand White). Anything Himalayan marked is a CA (Californian).

Since your CA are all either chc or chch, breeding any of them back to a REW (Ruby-eyed White) NZW will tell you if they are chc or chch. A litter with REW kits means that your CA is carrying c. If all kits are Himalayan marked, then the parent CA was chch.

If the rabbit is white (REW) (cc), then there are no other options. It is not carrying any of the other possibles (C, chd, chl, ch) and can never produce anything other than REW when bred with a REW. However, REWs carry all sorts of other things in their genetics, pertaining to A, B, D, and E gene, as well as some of the other outliers, wideband, Vienna, broken, etc...

But, if you're starting with Himalayan marked (ch_) and REW (cc) rabbits, you will only play with those colors.

There is more to what make a Californian versus a New Zealand, but thats where you need the ARBA Standard of Perfection, to pinpoint the finer details that truly make a rabbit a "good" representative of the breed.

 

[KelleyBee]

So, over the weekend we had 3 nice fall offs from the CA looking buck and the CA looking doe. I’m excited to see their offspring. My REW looking buck and doe were not yet successful at breeding, so I’m going to wait a few more weeks for them.

Now for the serious questions: Once I’ve confirmed the pregnancies or even wait until the kits are born, I think I should cull the sires…. I am needing their cages and I don’t think I need the original sires, or does for that matter, once I have the next generation. Or, should I breed the NZ REW looking buck back to his NZ REW looking mom also before culling him? By doing so, I’m thinking that will give me a kit from his pairing to his NZ REW looking sister and a kit from his mom that I can then use moving forward to refine the herd, rather than breeding straight siblings in the next generation.

To understand, we need to go back to my original post for this thread. These animals are from NZ/Cali mutts. Going back to replies from @SixGun and @eco2pia, my breeding mutts are actually first generation mutts. Sires and dams were pure breeds, from what I’ve been told from the farmer where I purchased them.

I look forward to more info from you!

 

[KelleyBee]

Once I’ve confirmed the pregnancies or even wait until the kits are born, should I cull the sire? I am needing their cages and I don’t think I need the original sires, or does for that matter, once I have the next generation. Or, should I breed the NZ REW looking buck back to his NZ REW looking mom also before culling him? By doing so, I’m thinking that will give me a kit from his pairing to his NZ REW looking sister and a kit from his mom that I can then use moving forward to refine the herd, rather than breeding straight siblings in the next generation.

 

[eco2pia]

Well, if it was me, I'd probably wait to see how the kits look. The idea with culling is to make careful decisions. For instance, will the new kit bucks be better than the sire? I have an unpedigreed American chin doe who is sweet, gentle, kind, and the flat out best momma I've ever had. I kept her first daughter and bred her. She is sweet and gentle, but lost 3 kits out of her first litter of 8, and despite being 2 weeks younger than her mom's litter they are smaller--strike 1. Now she's had a litter of 11. They are tiny. She's feeding them, but I expect to foster half of them on to her mom in a week or so, just to keep them growing. Meanwhile Mom raised 9, and they are fat and sassy and ready for harvest weeks ahead of schedule.

Point is, right now Mom is the keeper. This fall I'll cull the daughter and raise a different girl from the good momma.

Your buck is half your herd, so pick the very best one you can.