ARGENT BRUN AND CHAMPAGNES

[MamaSheepdog]

it is just my weird little language obsession that made me go looking for the "why" of the name change.

You are in good company here, with your little "language obsession".

 

[dragonladyleanne]

A ha!

Argente means silver - renard argente means silver fox

I guess back in the day they only came in black so noir would be redundant, but with the new colours I think they should re-name them brun argente d'champagne, creme argente d'champagne, and noir argente d'champagne just to clarify things.

Actually, there IS an Argente Noir...it is a smaller rabbit than the Champagne D'Argent

http://www.thebrc.org/standards/N6-Argente%20Noir.pdf

An interesting (at least to me) idea, Dood. Though I think it unlikely to happen, there are just too many variations on ENGLISH, much less muddying the waters with French, LOL!

Thank you for the link, OAF, I backed it up to the homepage, maybe it can help in my research (I am into history, LOL). Some sites about the Argent de Champagnes have said, "the French will tell you that they [the Argents] came from England", so I suspect a lot of the name variations are due to varying degrees of documentation or lack of it over the years. The internet is both wonderful, in allowing access to documents a world away, and terrible, in having to wade through a lot of opinions presented as fact. And I am the sort who finds it helpful to put things out there for discussion, if something looks like opinion but has been repeated so often it is accepted as fact, not to start an argument, but to clarify. For instance, most older reference books state that there were no rabbits in England before the Normans, but new archeological evidence shows artificial warrens in place which predate them. It is NOW surmised that the Romans imported them, but that after the Romans left, the warrens were not maintained, and the rabbits swiftly declined to natural predators, until their reintroduction by the Normans. Inconsequential detail to many folks, but I find it as entertaining as a good mystery opcorn: !

 

[3mina]

Thanks DDL, I love learning this type of thing but I'm hopeless at even figuring out where to start looking for it so I'm grateful to those of you who can

 

[champagne77]

I cringe when I here people talking about mixing champagne d'argents with any thing else.You are right about what you mentioned concerning where champagnes originated from but to add to the argent means of silver, which means its the only breed that qualifies to be called d'argents. None of the others are silver.Also if you go to page 47 in the standards of perfection you'll see the proper color for a champagne regardless what some judges say,there is such a thing as too dark,lol.I'm new on the site but not new to champagnes,if any of you follow convention results then you know who i am.
Jerry

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

.I'm new on the site but not new to champagnes,if any of you follow convention results then you know who i am.

Hi Jerry.. I know who you are... welcome to RT...

__________ Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:21 am __________

is such a thing as too dark,lol

and yes there is... I was told that one of my does was to dark.

 

[Dood]

which means its the only breed that qualifies to be called d'argents. None of the others are silver.

D'argents are not the only silvered breed - Silver fox carry the silvering genes 'si si' and my American Chinchilla's occasionally have silvered chestnut when bred to my New Zealand buck so it is found in those breeds as well. ( it is definitely silver and not a silver tipped steel, I have both in my blood line and the silvered kits radically change colour)

Mixing up breeds is how we got all the neat colors and coat textures seen in rabbits today and I say go for it, although the original purpose of the silver fox (rabbit) was to look like a silver fox (canine) and I must agree that the extream silvering of Champagne D'Argent is the most striking and beautiful, at least in my eyes.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

D'argents are not the only silvered breed - Silver fox carry the silvering genes 'si si' and my American Chinchilla's occasionally have silvered chestnut when bred to my New Zealand buck so it is found in those breeds as well. ( it is definitely silver and not a silver tipped steel, I have both in my blood line and the silvered kits radically change colour)

Pretty sure that Jerry was referring to only the Argente related breeds....Argente Brun, Argente Noir, etc.....

Jerry, where does that leave Creme d' Argent? I know next to nothing about the Argente breeds, but I thought that they all, regardless of basic color, have silvering to the fur, which is what makes them "Argente" or "d'Argent"? Can you enlighten me?

 

[Honorine]

Here in the US the Argent breeds are kept separate, as they are considered different breeds. I used to have Creme d Argents and they are very different from the Champagnes, smaller, with more varying type, temperament not as good. While Cremes and Champagnes are completely different breeds here, the bruns on the other hand are a color variant of the black Champagnes, and folks are using Champagnes to work on the Bruns. Adding non-extension to that would be a huge mistake. I have Silvers myself, and we have three colors, brown, black and fawn. It is a major no no to breed black to fawn, or to have any fawns behind your blacks at all, people won't buy your rabbits. I have seen a silvered 'creme' Enderby Island rabbit, very pretty, just a silvered tort, and acceptable in that breed. Don't want to see it in my barn though.

 

[champagne77]

Hi again champagne people.Hi Mary Ann,I don't know much about Bruns or Cremes but I am going to do such research so I can talk about them with some knowledge,in the coming days I'll let you know what that might be.I do know this much about champagnes, when your looking for a new buck with different blood lines its important not to go outside your own line to any extremes for example mine are pretty much all from a mix of Cleer and Jamiesons lines. Reason being these breeders have crossed there lines back and forth to remove all the defects they possibly could thru breeding and lines are pretty pure in that sense. The only problems I've had is when inbreeding to closely,brother to sister isn't good.I look for bucks with similar ancestry.

__________ Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:52 pm __________

I googled creme d'argent history and found how cremes originated in the United States,so if your looking for info on them I'd start there.<br /><br />__________ Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:38 pm __________<br /><br />De Argent in french is of silver. which means theres no reason to call cremes d'arget cause there not silver and neither are bruns.

 

[lizardboy101]

The thing I never got was why everyone claims silver fox are so similiar to champagne's. A champagne's fur would be considered agouti by any color standard where as a silver fox jus has scattered white hairs in their fur. A creme is also an agouti which is why i believe the d'argent was added to to the breed name. not sure if a brun does as well

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

a brun was made by ED WHite.. It popped up in one of his litters .. And he kept it and went from there.. They are a big smaller. But very pretty. I was talking to him on the phone and asked him on how to go about the breeding. I can use the brun buck on the champagne girls and breed back to the buck. .. The creme is a different breed all together.

 

[lizardboy101]

Yes i realize its a different breed. From my understanding its a champagne that carries chocolate. Ive akways thought of ecpiremening with my choco mini rex but throw it off as a waste of time because im not a fan of mutts. Lol

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Actually Champagnes and Bruns are SELFS... Cremes are non extension agouti. All three are separate breeds. The Brun was its own breed but pretty much became extinct, it may still be around in the UK in its original form which is about 6 to 7 pounds max. The Silver fox is completely different from the Champagnes heritage . The silvering is totally different, in fact putting the two breeds side by side, the Silver Fox would look like a black with a lot of scattered whites. The SF also has a totally different type of coat and crossbreeding the SF with anything will ruin its "stand-up" feature of its coat which is very important. It is right now acceptable that Champ carry Chocolate or even dilute for blue which is probably being developed somewhere.. ED White did have a chocolate pop up in his champs several years ago and he began to develop it. He later passed all his Stock on to Devon who sent a lot out into the States to both coasts actually.Ed has now retired from breeding Bruns but still breeds some kick-ass Dutch. A buck Devon bred was shown on the west coast where the owner(COD holder for the Bruns) was told he was good enough for BIS but because they are still going through the COD process made him ineligible to compete for a higher award. Unfortunately we have taken the Devonglen website down, but it had a complete history of Champs and Bruns plus how the Bruns made a comeback here in Ontario. It *may* be still kicking around the internet on her old blog, I will have to ask her when she is home.However rest assured that no serious breeder here or in the States `mixes" the Cremes with the Champagnes.Nor do they use silver fox in Champs. Fortunately Champagnes have remained out of the realm of pet breeders or have not really caught their radar so they tend to be bred to the standard for now and most hopefully into the future.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Fortunately Champagnes have remained out of the realm of pet breeders or have not really caught their radar so they tend to be bred to the standard for now and most hopefully into the future.

This, so much this!!!!!!!!!!