Are you SURE you are vegan?

[Miss M]

Very interesting, Brody!

It think it is a good thing that the home farming is coming back. A greater variety of produce is grown, bees are kept, and animals are treated better.

Helps make the food supply more local, too.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

I don't understand the concept that backyard farms automatically treat animals better and that so-called "factory-farms do not. Here we are talking about "middle-ground" and still making blanket statements. What exactly is a factory-farm?? Someone who keeps more than a couple dozen animals? Large-scale beef and poultry and pork farming have gone on for a lot longer than "70" years, It is also a response to the fact that agriculture lands are being eaten up by the spreading suburbs and population explosion. NO ONE can make a living anymore staying on a small family run farm. A farmer is the only business-person who is expected to buy their supplies at retail and then turn around and sell their finished products at wholesale. A farmer is also dependent totally on the weather and soil conditions. In the past it was a natural response to add fertilizers and pesticides to soil in order to improve yields. I think that may be changing as a lot of producers seem to be moving away from this idea. After all pesticides are extremely expensive themselves and perhaps do not affect the bottom line as much as their expense implies it should. Same with animals there are many wonder drugs available to keep animals in comfort when ill that were not around 70 years ago. Ideas on cleanliness and ventilation and stress have improved drastically in the last century, so I am not sure it is correct to say farm animals are treated worse now than "before'. I am all for "middle ground". I feel what someone eats is their choice, but I also expect that one would respect others' choices without causing troubles for those who do not follow their ways. While I am all for the producers of food making a decent living (what we all want right?) I am not sure that food should be tied to big business and who has the most money..I think things like wheat futures and corn futures and someone sitting on Wall St. SPECULATING on the rising cost of food is wrong! Perhaps thats where we should focus together? After all something is incredibly wrong when there is an obesity epidemic AND people staving epidemics happening at the same time!

 

[MaggieJ]

You raise a lot of interesting and valid points, Lauren. "Food for thought" indeed.

 

[Miss M]

That wasn't quite what I meant when I said that animals are treated better in home farms. I didn't mean by that that animals are treated well in backyard farms and poorly in factory farms. I meant that in a small, home farm, the animals often double as pets, and get individual attention and affection. If you go up from one dairy cow to 50 dairy cows, that gets a bit more difficult. It doesn't mean the animals are treated poorly. There are large dairies with hundreds of cows that treat their cows quite well. But at that level, the cows are numbered, not named, and they don't get much individual attention. That doesn't make the dairy bad, it's just something they can't do because they are large. I buy milk that comes from large dairies, as long as it is hormone-free.

That's what I meant by my comment that "animals are treated better" in home farms. It wasn't the difference between bad and good, but good and better.

I'm sure there are factory farms that treat their animals poorly, just like there are probably home farms that treat their animals poorly.

By "home farms", I'm really referring more to people with backyard rabbitries, chicken coops, and vegetable gardens. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Cattle Cait]

I think there is a definite difference in animal care standards between a factory farm and a...well, what would you call a nonfactory farm that's still a large, commercial farm? I mean, if I keep 100 dairy cows on a pasture they're most certainly cared for better then 100 equal cows kept in a concrete "factory-style" building because I'm simply allowing them sufficient pasture. Their bones and joints are in better shape on soft ground, they have access to quality forage (can't get much higher quality then fresh out of the ground) and I could go on and on. I don't know that it'd be considered a small farm because 100 dairy cows isn't really all that small (compared to 100 beef cows or 100 sows - 100 beef cows would be moderately small, 100 sows is quite large). Even if the factory farm provided the absolute best care and facilities it wouldn't be as beneficial to the cow as would be a sustainable-type farm with the best care and facilities.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

You are still differentiating by SIZE(Number of stock). You are also placing your personal opinion on whether an animal wants or needs a name and "affection" as a certain standard or type of care that may or may not be better then giving an animal a number and giving it the exact same nutrition and care and facilities that a backyard animal has. You are still judging by that personal standard. This is my whole point, making blanket statements because of size of operation. I understand totally that Cait may want her cattle on pasture, that you may want to go out and hug your food, what I am saying is this term "factory farm" has been made up and tossed around by those who want us all to stop using animals those who want to control us and how we breathe and think and do. We need to be careful it seems that these ideas that don't have much behind them except for a few guerrilla videos have spread into our personal thinking without realizing it. Its totally illogical to me that someone or a company would deliberately mistreat or not hold a certain standard of care for their livestock. Animals do not do well when mistreated, do not grow and mostly just die of disease, why would someone spend time and money just for that. I would also say its safe to say that the majority of Dairy ops actually do pasture their cows, why wouldn't they? Fresh grass equals more milk yields for pretty much cheap. However as pretty much every barn dairy or otherwise has cement floors its also pretty safe to say even the small operation stables over cement (with bedding) In older barns cows were actually kept in stanchions pretty much full time when they weren't out or it was winter. Efficiency is also not determined by size but by management and how innovative the individual is. I guess after all that long windedness I am saying yes there is a proper level of care for any animal and anyone is free to go above and beyond that, BUT they shouldn't judge others by their own personal standard but by a general scientific (for want of a better word)level. I also think we need to stop projecting what are human emotions into animals and then saying if we don't treat an animal in a human way then its a bad thing! In other words we need the middle ground!! We need to protest the big money interests in food that control prices nationally, we do need to have more family farms (or to stop losing them!)I don't necessarily think an operation is bad just on size, but it is what it is! Close it down if it doesn't meet proper standard and give it a medal if it goes above and beyond!

 

[Cattle Cait]

Where you're located, they may pasture their dairies. Where I am, I've seen maybe three dairies in our area of Ingham County that graze their cows out of nearly a hundred total in the area. They don't pasture typically because the main breed of choice, Holsteins, do NOT produce better on grass because they've been developed to produce in a factory-farm setting. If they don't have a highly maintained diet of silage, they drop in milk production drastically. They're only raised because they produce on average 26,000lbs of milk a year.(I call them factory farm simply because it's a generally known word, it gets across what type of scenario I'm trying to refer to.)

I'm not trying to say that the cows are pets. Certainly none of my chickens are, none of them have names.

 

[Miss M]

I am sorry I upset you, Lauren, especially since I completely agree with you! I have not expressed myself well on this at all.

I know that these animals do not need names or human affection in order to be plenty well cared for. Most enjoy the affection if it's available, but they don't need it.

As you said, it is illogical for a factory farm to not take good care of its animals. It does happen, though, rarely. Just like a rare person who deliberately mistreats their pet. Yes, there needs to be an objective standard, beyond which the authorities have no say. All the factory farms I've seen, whether in person, on the 'net, or on TV, take excellent care of their animals. It makes sense to, because that is how they get the most back.

 

[Saxon Violence]

Look at the Animal Kingdom.

The Lion is "The King of Beasts".

Sheep are considered Cowardly--as are Chickens.

"Dumb as a Cow" is a common expression, as is "Bovine Stupidity".

It seems self evident that the Carnivores are "Better" than the Herbivores. It takes a grazer all day, practically every day to graze, and thus feed himself.

A Carnivore may put in a 4 to 5 hour shift--every three or four days.

Now I don't believe in Evolution (Being A Creationist).....

But speaking by analogy, Vegetarians and Vegans seem to be Volunteering to Abdicate the Top rung of Evolution, and go and live like a Serf.....

No, to actually become a Serf.

Like the Army's little Jingle, "Be....Nothing That you could have been.....Renounce the Future.....in "Thee AHR-ER-AHR-Mee!!!"

I saw a rather disturbing Movie on Television Recently, about people who want to be Maimed and Crippled. I get the same Weirded-Out feeling about the Herbivore People.

Saxon Violence

 

[akane]

But at that level, the cows are numbered, not named, and they don't get much individual attention.

Last week I butchered MD1 and 2MD3... what does a name have to do with anything? Most small family farms don't name their future food and only a few name their breeders. They use ear tags and tattoos whether it's a little rabbit or much larger livestock. A unique animal might get a nickname and the breeders might be registered with actual names but that's it. I find it interesting that whenever I buy a meat breed even if the person raised for show and pet and those lines have not been raised for meat in many human generations majority of the pedigree is still number and letter designations whereas all the mini/dwarf breeds have names on the pedigrees. I bought from someone who had Champagne d'argent all marked by number designation of which they were 5 generations in from their starting stock so it was all their own system and then their mini rex and flemish all had names.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

Quite, frankly, I am neither vegetarian or carnivore-- I am an OMNIVORE- eat both meat and plants. A local dairy farmer sold his herd to his daughter-- the cows benefited greatly-- despite not having much education in animal husbandry herself-- within a year, the cows were fatter, produced more milk, and were being fed less silage and grain-- The kid made sure the cow pastures had been reseeded with better forage-- the bacteria levels in the milk dropped, and cases of mastitis were cut in half-- None of the cows are named-- research has shown that cows that WALK a mile or two a day, produce more milk. But then, stanchion kept cows produced more milk when their heads were stuck in air conditioned tunnels, as well. Some research has shown that grass fed animals produce lower to no level of zoonotic E. Coli bacteria-- In other words-- if you ingest E coli from them, you are not going to get sick!(feeding silage and grain changes the dgestive makeup of the cow and other animals) Ah well

 

[Miss M]

I am so sorry I mentioned the whole naming bit and all that. It was a dumb way to put what I was trying to say, and I can't seem to correct my mistake.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

I think almost evey animal gets named- some way to identify it without a number, so to speak. Like - the one with the blue eye, or The one that kicks the door frame when she passes through.-I Know one beef cow-- called 'That Black Witch" by my friend. One day, we were sitting down to hamburgers, and there was a gleam in her eye. That Black Witch had been renamed Dinner.
And you know what-- in my small flock of chickens, some got named, some didn't.Naming or lack thereof is not necessarily the mark of factory or family farming. That dairy farmer I talked about-- he also had an excavating business, as well as producing a LOT of hay-- Selling the herd to his daughter took a load off of him (he inherited the dairy from his father),it kept his taxes low, as he 'sold' the hay to the dairy, he can now concentrate on his excavating and tractor repair business, and- the cows actually have someone seeing to their needs that has more than an obligatory interest in them. So, in a way, that dairy-- by treatment of the cattle, went from 'factory' to 'family'

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Actually I am only upset by one name and that is "Factory Farm", it just automatically implies badness, but are all factories that produce other goods bad too? Everyone has their ways to do things and different experiences in life. It just makes me mad that a small group of people can inflict so much "damage" on society in general over a lot of half baked ideas about how one "should" live or treat animals! What i mean is we seem to be slowly assimilating things into our way of thinking without actually thinking it through ourselves!!! And to Saxon thanks for your thoughts, I never thought of vegan-ism that way.. Also i have always said to never complain about the farmers with your mouth full!!! ( either meat or veggies lol)

 

[PulpFaction]

If you have NetFlix, watch the movie Forks Over Knives. Turns out it's a vegan propaganda film, but it definitely has me reconsidering the prominence of meat and dairy in my diet. It's mind-boggling how much meat and dairy we consume as Americans in comparison to past levels, and in comparison to other countries and cultures. We could probably all benefit from a little bit less and little bit more healthy fruits and vegetables. (Not more grains!)

 

[Brody]

Lauren - human factories are nothing to write home about either - the conditions in any factory are massive in scale and not given to comfort ... if you don't like the term factory farm don't use it - personally I find it useful to differentiate between large scale farmers and "factory farming" enterprises in my mind they are quite different things - if there is no difference to you that's fine
A woman in the UK coined the term in the 60's ...

the things animals might be missing in a factory farm aren't names (sorry miss m - couldn't resist a gentle tease- I got what you were saying) but

1.Freedom from hunger and thirst
2.Freedom from discomfort
3.Freedom from pain, injury and disease
4.Freedom to express normal behaviour
5.Freedom from fear and distress


animal welfare is not animal rights ..

Pulp Fiction - it's amazing isn't it? I've been really lazy over the past couple of years and using meat,starch and veg in most meals - I'm really making an effort to use what we grow lately and loving the results - not for all mealsbut many - so for the half meals beign veg makes a lot of sense

 

[Jack]

The gist is that pain/suffering (we are talking the farm NOT the slaughter)
the feed/watering

they attempt to maximize the conditions to produce a marketable animal
veal, foie gras, certain things like that...

what seems to get lost in the whole translation is the middle ground
starved chickens forced to produce on an 'unnatural' schedule... = bamtam production egglayers
starved meat cattle = organic free range angus beef....
never mind FAT is inexpensive for the rancher when you are selling weight on hoof, muscle cost more (in feed)

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

But you don't sell to market "on the hoof" There is a base market price and the carcasses are GRADED which means a lot of fat(heavy marbling) is downgraded which equals LESS money, same for pork there is a base price and the more backfat on the carcass the less you get per pound and the less fat the more you get.. a starved chicken does not lay eggs and starved beef cattle don't grow all that well. Fat is also half the weight of muscle.
The 5 things you listed brody mean an animals thrives; if they are NOT present then you have loss of profit and inefficiency. That is what the point of this debate is actually about besides the fact some person made a term up to fuel others' distress towards the people who are responsible for our food. I don't use the term and never have, because I always questioned exactly what it was supposed to mean. As it turns out it means completely different things to every individual(see other thread). Perhaps that was the intent

I am also more than aware of the sweat shops that exist in this world, but even so I am sure there are all types of factories out there that are good place to work as well. Interestingly enough if we do give up the use of animal products for clothes etc. we would be much more dependent on the "sweatshops" that produce clothing that is synthetic(read petroleum-based) than ever before. Should society be even more dependent on "conflict" oil?

 

[Brody]

I understand that for farmers animals thriving is important

I am not convinced that thriving is as important in a factory farm- they can have a whole lot of loss and still be ok in a profit sense

I don't quite get the connection between the discussion of farming and conflict oil? Was your question rhetorical or directed at me? If at me I truly don't believe that more humane farming will lead to increases in the use of sweatshops.

perhaps we'd best agree to disagree and move on

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Lauren - human factories are nothing to write home about either - the conditions in any factory are massive in scale and not given to comfort ... if you don't like the term factory farm don't use it - personally I find it useful to differentiate between large scale farmers and "factory farming" enterprises in my mind they are quite different things - if there is no difference to you that's fine
A woman in the UK coined the term in the 60's ...

I am also more than aware of the sweat shops that exist in this world, but even so I am sure there are all types of factories out there that are good place to work as well. Interestingly enough if we do give up the use of animal products for clothes etc. we would be much more dependent on the "sweatshops" that produce clothing that is synthetic(read petroleum-based) than ever before. Should society be even more dependent on "conflict" oil?

This part about sweatshops WAS in answer to the above quote you posted... The connection which I made was because of the original post being about vegans and their quest to NOT use any animal products at all relates in general. I am not sure of your personal beliefs on vegan-ism so was a general rhetorical question. NOT using animal products WILL increase our dependance on oil. Most synthetic fabrics, plastics etc. are petroleum based! Vegans have 2 choices; cotton or petroleum based for clothing.. North America uses a lot of oil from countries that are questionable in their human rights practices or are in outright conflict with world human rights. I find it sad that human rights should be trampled in favour of "animal rights". True veganism is not really enviromentally friendly in the end, which is very ironic!