Are rabbits worth the effort? Long post.... Need some help..

[cowgirl9768]

So I'm going to share my rabbit story with you guys

When I first got a pair of rabbits they were holland lops. They never would breed and I couldn't figure out why till I found out the lady sold me a spayed female. I sold the doe and the buck passed from old age before getting another doe. He was 9 when he died. Then I had two holland lops sent to me and on arrival to doe had a huge mass on her neck and the buck was evil. I could not even place my hand in his cage without gloves. The doe was put down and the buck was sold to a lady who liked to train mean rabbits.... Don't ask me why.

Then I met melissa a lionhead breeder/ 4-H leader. I got a lionhead doe from her. I got busy with college and horses and life (I started college at 15 and a half). So I didn't get a buck till that doe was a year old. Melissa told me she was to old to breed for the first time cause her hips would have fused so I sold her. Then I got another doe from Melissa who died 3 days later for no apparent reason. Melissa replaced that doe with Pumpkin (one of the does I own now). Pumpkin never realy grew much and was bairley 2 pounds full grown. She was to small to breed with my BEW buck so I went to a lady named Susuan and got Misha (the doe who maybe is maybe is pregnat right now and has been a pain in my butt since I started trying to breed her a in the fall).Shortly after buying Misha I noticed my BEW buck having seizures. After seeing that I knew I should not breed him. He just died a few weeks ago. So here I am. I have a doe who won't breed, a doe to small to breed, a netherland dwarf buck my friend dropped on me, and a tiny buck.... So 5 years into rabbits and still and not even started :-/

What is the trick? What am I doing roung -_-

 

[Secuono]

What are you trying to breed and what for?
If it's just for petting out, meat and/or $, breed the dwarf to the tiny doe or her to the tiny buck.
If you're trying to breed for standard and show, looks like you should invest in proven, breeding pairs instead of young and singles.

 

[Dood]

Here's my 2 cents.

Question- do you want to show, do you want to win, or do you just want to have popples you can sell as pets?

There is a lot of crappy stock out there, ESPECIALLY in the small breeds. There are many people who have a doe and a buck and breed rabbits with absolutely no idea about conformation, genetics or even proper nutrition and a high price does not mean quality, some of my best Netherland Dwarf stock was free (mostly due to bad attitudes)

There is nothing wrong with breeding rabbits just for fun but be prepared for heartache if you buy less than stellar stock. If you are SERIOUS you must go the extra mile. Research breeders reputation - don't take their word for it and ask lots of questions to weed out who really knows their stuff and who doesn't, don't buy sight unseen, pay for the quality you want, follow strict quarantine measures and cull when necessary.

Dwarfs have a whole set of other issues and I would not recommend them as a first choice to get into breeding. If you insist then have a buck with the dwarf gene and your does should all be false dwarfs. You still may have birthing and health issues but it is much less likely.

BEW and Charlies are also known to have additional health issues due to their lack of pigment. It affects the blood brain barrier (=seizures) and digestive systems (= random death) so again, stay away unless you have a very good understanding of how your does and bucks genes interact and prepare yourself for the possible problems.

Good breeders make raising rabbits look easy because they know their stuff: they can look at an 8 week old kit and visually dissect it to it's bones and make judgements about it's future health and productivity; they can scan the pedigrees and see potential problems and benefits and when they visit another rabbitry and view the breeders generations all together they can see who they should and should not buy to improve their own stock.

It's called experience and by making these mistakes you are gaining it.

I breed for meat and pets. Most of my rabbits would be laughed off the show table but I was VERY carefully about choosing my breeding stock.

When I was looking for rabbits my number one priority was temperament, followed closely by breeding soundness - none of my rabbits have pinched hips, they all have huge ball shaped butts, are excellent mothers and good milkers. Any who have issues with their first litters are not given a second chance but culled or spayed. Any kits who don't follow in their mothers foot steps are culled no matter how cute they are or their pretty colour, unfortunately the majority of rabbit breeders (and breeders of other species) are not as picky and the world if full of animals that really should never have been born and certainly shouldn't breed but that's another discussion.

 

[Whipple]

I would absolutely start with a proven pair. Then since they know what they're doing you only have to worry about you.

Personally I would have tried breeding that 1 yr old doe. Always get a second sand third opinion before making decisions like getting rid of what could have been a great doe. Never know though.

 

[cowgirl9768]

I have been doing some research and found the best lionhead breeder in our area... She has beautiful stock and wins almost every show. I messages her on Facebook (I added her after meeting at an ARBA show). Today she agree to help me out and get me started. We have already been setting up a breeding plan. Gah hopeful year 6 is the charm... I'm sick of dieing none breed able rabbit. I get that that is part of rabbits but not all there should be to it....<br /><br />__________ Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:47 pm __________<br /><br />And I want to breed for show.

 

[ckcs]

I think it is worth it. The wonderful posts of popples can make you think it is smooth sailing for everyone. I can assure you that is not the case. There are many breeders that have or have had a hard time getting good stock and loosing many adult rabbits. Others have struggled with getting rabbits to breed. Then there are those like myself that haven't lost a single doe or buck, have had every breeding attempt be successful only to loose most of the kits. Out of my first 6 litters, only 3 rabbits lived, a 25% success rate. If I hadn't had 2 other does bred when I lost the 6th litter I may have stopped. Fortunately the other 2 does had 7 kits between them (lionheads)with 6 surviving. I cannot say success is around the next corner for sure but I believe if you keep trying it will be.

 

[cowgirl9768]

Out of my first 6 litters, only 3 rabbits lived, a 25% success rate. If I hadn't had 2 other does bred when I lost the 6th litter I may have stopped.

Gosh.... At least I've never lost a kit.... Not that I have had many litters...

 

[phillinley]

If you're going to show, research the best breeder and by the best trio to show. You've had enough heartbreak with these guys to not have to wait around anymore. Plus, buying from the local top breeder may or may not work out. They are sometimes hesitant to sell their best stock to locals for fear of having to beat their own rabbits the next time they go to show. Not everyone is like this, but it happens.

 

[Prisma]

Buying the best is no guarantee, hips fusing is not true for rabbits. If I recall correctly it is for GP though. Very sorry to hear that problems you have had, but determination will get you there. There will be more hard times, but if you really want to breed and are determined no matter what, you will eventually get there. As others have said, buy the best you can from the best in your area or even best in a tri state area or further out if possible. Do not expect to get good stock with out a decent price tag attached though, its not always true but usually what you pay for is what you get. Watch and do more research, certain lines, not just bews and charlies, can have very very bad draw backs that come with them. Ask around, watch, ask the breeder if they've encountered any issues like split penis, bad teeth or butting teeth of any kind, bone issues, shakes or seizures, poor immune systems, high birth to low weaning rate, GI issues, etc. Make a list and ask, some may take a while to get back with you, especially if they're showing as the spring season is or has started in some places. Don't give up! Pick what you want to do and keep going at it.<br /><br />__________ Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:49 pm __________<br /><br />

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Just want to mention I agree with what Dood said.

 

[cowgirl9768]

If you're going to show, research the best breeder and by the best trio to show. You've had enough heartbreak with these guys to not have to wait around anymore. Plus, buying from the local top breeder may or may not work out. They are sometimes hesitant to sell their best stock to locals for fear of having to beat their own rabbits the next time they go to show. Not everyone is like this, but it happens.

I have expearinced local breeder trying to reck the compition...It is truely a sad thing.... I just need to find a breeder I can realy trust. I think I may have found one. She is in the top 3 lionhead breeder in the country and is well know at nationals.

She wants to help me and has offered to breed my doe with her multiple best of breed BEW buck. Praying this works out it seems to good to be true. It's just weird how I was about to give up and she came swooping in.<br /><br />__________ Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:49 pm __________<br /><br />And thank every one on here for your advice. I will look into a proven pare. I am sticking with lionheads even though the dwarf gene complicates things. That is what I have the cages and equipment for and that is were my heart is. I just had to vent cause ive been getting pretty discouraged.

 

[Peach]

Just remember that your lionhead won't be eligable for BIS. It's not an accepted breed. So learn the COD and breed towards that. Find a good mentor. Lionheads vary throughout the US because some go for the larger lionhead size and some go for the dwarf size.

Hips do not fuse with rabbits.

Also, do a lot of research with the BEW gene. It's known to cause seizures. If you are going to do a BEW program, stick to it and let people know of your BEW background. It's a color that is strictly for a BEW program alone. You'll have carriers,marked,and BEWs but it can hide for several generations. So it may look normal, but when taken to someone elses non bew program, they can end up with white toe nails, blue eyes,etc.

And remember. Color is just icing on the cake Type then color.

 

[faiththequeen]

And remember. Color is just icing on the cake Type then color.

This is hard for me too. I'm such a color sucker. But it's SUPER important to remember Good luck!!!

 

[ottersatin]

Melissa told me she was to old to breed for the first time
cause her hips would have fused.

Cowgirl,
that statement is: NOT TRUE!
Rabbits hips do not fuse together if they are not bred,
in fact they Do Not fuse together at ALL.
It is Guinea Pigs that have that problem.
Rabbits may hove trouble getting bread
if they are allowed to become overly FAT.
They will develop fat deposits on/over the Ovaries.
This is what causes most breeding problems.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[skysthelimit]

And thank every one on here for your advice. I will look into a proven pare. I am sticking with lionheads even though the dwarf gene complicates things. That is what I have the cages and equipment for and that is were my heart is. I just had to vent cause ive been getting pretty discouraged.

I understand. That's how I feel about the Hollands. They have been a pain since I got them. After a year I am down 8 back to the original two. Funny thing is, the smallest showy doe is the only one that ever produced anything.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

And remember. Color is just icing on the cake Type then color.

This is hard for me too. I'm such a color sucker. But it's SUPER important to remember Good luck!!!

My late friend and horse mentor once told me, "there never was a good horse who was a bad color." She was of course very right!

Happens to be true of all animals, as it turns out.

As for BEW...documentation, documentation, documentation! Any rabbit descended from a BEW, note that on the pedigree. Or at least that's what I plan to do.

 

[Honorine]

Yup a good horse cannot be a bad color- relates to dogs as well.

While a rabbits pelvis does not 'fuse' the way that a guinea pigs does an older first time doe can still have a hard time kindling. My Silver foundation doe was 18 months old when I got her, so I had no choice but to breed her. Her first kit was a 'pencil' kit- long, squished and dead from being extruded thru her tighter hardened pelvis. Then there was nothing for 18 hours. She went on to kindle 5 more, all had very bruised heads, but they were alive. 'Pencil' kits are common with older does, there's less give and the kits are forced out and sometimes don't make it. So while 'fusing' is a bit misleading its still not a great idea to breed older does that have never been bred, unless you need her genes.

Your problem is in picking cute little dwarf breeds, difficult dwarf breeds. Try something a bit bigger, with a better track record. Get some success under your belt and then go for the more difficult breeds. This is what we tell all of our 4H kids, we steer them away from the harder breeds, some breeds really are more difficult and its terribly dispointing if their your first rabbit experience.

 

[Dood]

Or go with false dwarfs with alot of 'junk in the trunk' and a true dwarf buck who has big hips. You will get half true and half false dwarfs. Keep the true for show and sell the false.

I find the general public is happy with pretty much any small rabbit under 5 pounds

 

[phillinley]

I find the general public is happy with pretty much any small rabbit under 5 pounds

I'm becoming generally unhappy with any rabbit breed we have under 5 pounds, but my children disagree

 

[cowgirl9768]

Just remember that your lionhead won't be eligable for BIS. It's not an accepted breed. So learn the COD and breed towards that. Find a good mentor. Lionheads vary throughout the US because some go for the larger lionhead size and some go for the dwarf size.

Hips do not fuse with rabbits.

Also, do a lot of research with the BEW gene. It's known to cause seizures. If you are going to do a BEW program, stick to it and let people know of your BEW background. It's a color that is strictly for a BEW program alone. You'll have carriers,marked,and BEWs but it can hide for several generations. So it may look normal, but when taken to someone elses non bew program, they can end up with white toe nails, blue eyes,etc.

And remember. Color is just icing on the cake Type then color.

Yeah I've actually done some in depth study of the BEW genes for my college bio 122 genetics assignments. I've studied all about the genetics and problems till info was flowing out my eyeballs haha.

__________ Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:40 pm __________

Melissa told me she was to old to breed for the first time
cause her hips would have fused.

Cowgirl,
that statement is: NOT TRUE!
Rabbits hips do not fuse together if they are not bred,
in fact they Do Not fuse together at ALL.
It is Guinea Pigs that have that problem.
Rabbits may hove trouble getting bread
if they are allowed to become overly FAT.
They will develop fat deposits on/over the Ovaries.
This is what causes most breeding problems.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

Haha yeah I have been corrected of this misconception and won't make it again -_-

__________ Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:41 pm __________

And thank every one on here for your advice. I will look into a proven pare. I am sticking with lionheads even though the dwarf gene complicates things. That is what I have the cages and equipment for and that is were my heart is. I just had to vent cause ive been getting pretty discouraged.

I understand. That's how I feel about the Hollands. They have been a pain since I got them. After a year I am down 8 back to the original two. Funny thing is, the smallest showy doe is the only one that ever produced anything.

Same here, my small one is the only one who has given me completely healthy litters. It is so odd.

__________ Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:45 pm __________

As for BEW...documentation, documentation, documentation! Any rabbit descended from a BEW, note that on the pedigree. Or at least that's what I plan to do.

Agreed XD my pedigrees are insane. I have everything on them and have to WAY simplify them for shows so the judges are not like.....This is a pedigree it is the entire history of your rabbits ancestors! Haha

__________ Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:49 pm __________

Yup a good horse cannot be a bad color- relates to dogs as well.

While a rabbits pelvis does not 'fuse' the way that a guinea pigs does an older first time doe can still have a hard time kindling. My Silver foundation doe was 18 months old when I got her, so I had no choice but to breed her. Her first kit was a 'pencil' kit- long, squished and dead from being extruded thru her tighter hardened pelvis. Then there was nothing for 18 hours. She went on to kindle 5 more, all had very bruised heads, but they were alive. 'Pencil' kits are common with older does, there's less give and the kits are forced out and sometimes don't make it. So while 'fusing' is a bit misleading its still not a great idea to breed older does that have never been bred, unless you need her genes.

Your problem is in picking cute little dwarf breeds, difficult dwarf breeds. Try something a bit bigger, with a better track record. Get some success under your belt and then go for the more difficult breeds. This is what we tell all of our 4H kids, we steer them away from the harder breeds, some breeds really are more difficult and its terribly dispointing if their your first rabbit experience.

I did actually read this about older first time does. What I herd is their ligaments tighten so the first littler can have pincel kits but once the ligaments loosen after the first kindle they are okay. And I wish I had know how much harder dwarf breeds were before I spent so much money on dwarf sized cage and stock :arrow2: but I gotta work with what I have now.<br /><br />__________ Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:52 pm __________<br /><br />

I find the general public is happy with pretty much any small rabbit under 5 pounds

I'm becoming generally unhappy with any rabbit breed we have under 5 pounds, but my children disagree

I've never owned a rabbit over 4 pounds haha lions here on on the small side.... Ushualy 2.5 to 3 lbs. I had a litter with two bucks that were full grown at 2 lbs even they sold SO fast though!