another stupid question, lol

[Bad Habit]

That's the one! I always think there's a R in there somewhere, LOL. Thanks MSD

 

[SatinsRule]

The ancestry of the rabbit has nothing to do with getting 1/3rd brokens. Genetically the odds are 50/50. It's just chance that makes you get a litter which doesn't match the genetic odds. If you bred 100 times from a specific pair the numbers would even out and you would get that 50/50.

I didn't say it had anything to do with the rabbits being one-third broken, just stated what happened in the litter I got earlier this spring.

But the both the doe and buck's ancestries directly affect whether or not you get brokens, solids and/or charlies, and the percentages are likely to vary from time to time, and that was precisely my point.

 

[Bad Habit]

The ancestry of the rabbit has nothing to do with getting 1/3rd brokens. Genetically the odds are 50/50. It's just chance that makes you get a litter which doesn't match the genetic odds. If you bred 100 times from a specific pair the numbers would even out and you would get that 50/50.

I didn't say it had anything to do with the rabbits being one-third broken, just stated what happened in the litter I got earlier this spring.

But the both the doe and buck's ancestries directly affect whether or not you get brokens, solids and/or charlies, and the percentages are likely to vary from time to time, and that was precisely my point.

But it's not affected by the ancestries. The rabbits' genetics are inherited, yes, but the ancestry does not affect the percentages of kits. That is purely determined by chance.

 

[akane]

Your post made it sound like the percentages were controlled by the amount of brokens in the ancestry which is not true. Only the parents determine that irregardless of how many brokens, solids or charlies are behind them.

 

[skysthelimit]

The number of brokens or solids in the pedigree does determine the pattern of the broken kits, sometimes, more solids in the pedigree means a heavier blanket pattern.

 

[akane]

It determines the pattern but it doesn't always mean more brokens makes more white. I've got a booted from a pedigree with 3/4th broken. The solid thrown in as one parent just happens to carry modifiers towards patterns with little white and it took over any other pattern. I've also bred brokens that had broken on only one side of the pedigree with only the minimum number required to keep it in the genes and had charlie looking rabbits because both the broken and solid sides carried modifiers toward lots of white.

 

[SatinsRule]

Your post made it sound like the percentages were controlled by the amount of brokens in the ancestry which is not true. Only the parents determine that irregardless of how many brokens, solids or charlies are behind them.

No, what I was getting at is a way to prevent getting a bunch of charlies is to occasionally reintroduce a solid color.

The genetics for coloration are either strengthened or reinforced by the colors of the rabbits they're sired or born from. Case in point would be the broken litter I spoke of previously. The sire was a blue satin buck, while the DAM was a broken blue doe with borderline, marginal coloration on the white portion of her pelt. The result? Two perfectly colored blues and this guy:



As you can see, the amount of coloration Tracer has was enhanced by the introduction of his solid-colored father when breeding the DAM. Had I introduced a buck to her which had similar or less coloration and more white on its pelt, or a buck with an ancestry of a lot of whites, or brokens with less coloration, the result would likely have been a charlie. I included the remark about introducing a solid from to time as a means of reinforcing the gene(s) for coloration other than whites. From a percentage standpoint, you're more likely to get more properly colored brokens by doing so periodically.

Every breed which recognizes a broken variety has a minimum and maximum percentage of colorations which must be present for the rabbits to be shown. A rabbit outside of those parameters is DQ'd.

 

[skysthelimit]

It determines the pattern but it doesn't always mean more brokens makes more white. I've got a booted from a pedigree with 3/4th broken. The solid thrown in as one parent just happens to carry modifiers towards patterns with little white and it took over any other pattern. I've also bred brokens that had broken on only one side of the pedigree with only the minimum number required to keep it in the genes and had charlie looking rabbits because both the broken and solid sides carried modifiers toward lots of white.

Conventional genetics says that having more solids in the pedigree can increase the coverage of the pattern, and it is suggested that a solid be thrown in periodically when breeding broken to broken. It's also suggested that when breeding solid to broken, use a solid that has brokens in the pedigree, to reduce the likelihood of booted kits. I breed broken to broken, and have nice heavily pattern kits, because the brokens themselves are heavily patterned. I have yet to have a booted kit, but would not be surprised because the brokens are heavily patterned.
Nothing that involves genetics is 100 % sure predictable, but this is not unfounded advise. Two breedings, broken black to agouti--predict the outcomes---- I got 5 solid black and one broken black, next I got all blacks. Not a single agouti in either litter, and only one broken. No punnett square would have predicted that.

 

[GBov]

Just a quick stupid question of my own. I have a solid black doe that has a broken black dam. If I cross her with my solid black buck will I get pretty much half solids and half brokens?

Having read all four pages that is what I think I will get but wanted to double check before putting her with him.

 

[Random Rabbit]

Just a quick stupid question of my own. I have a solid black doe that has a broken black dam. If I cross her with my solid black buck will I get pretty much half solids and half brokens?

Having read all four pages that is what I think I will get but wanted to double check before putting her with him.

Solid to Solid will give only solids. You would need a broken to breed a solid to to get brokens.

 

[akane]

The parents don't matter. Whether they are broken or solid has nothing to do with the number of broken offspring. The only thing that matters are the 2 rabbits you are breeding. If they are solids they did not get the broken gene and they cannot pass it on so you cannot get brokens.

 

[GBov]

The parents don't matter. Whether they are broken or solid has nothing to do with the number of broken offspring. The only thing that matters are the 2 rabbits you are breeding. If they are solids they did not get the broken gene and they cannot pass it on so you cannot get brokens.

Oh NO! I thought that as she had half and half parrents she would be carrying the broken gene so I just had to breed her to the right buck to get at least a few brokens.

So, as she is herself solid she didnt get teh broken gene?

Where does broken come from then?

That looks a bit like teh chicken and the egg question :lol:

 

[skysthelimit]

Only brokens can make more brokens. If she's a solid than she cannot produce any brokens. She might have modifiers that help determine the patterns of brokens if she is bred to a broken, but she herself cannot produce brokens if she is bred to another solid.

For instance, I only have one broken Rex now. If I cull him, I will no longer have brokens in my breeding program, no matter how many of his solid offspring I have.

 

[GBov]

Only brokens can make more brokens. If she's a solid than she cannot produce any brokens. She might have modifiers that help determine the patterns of brokens if she is bred to a broken, but she herself cannot produce brokens if she is bred to another solid.

For instance, I only have one broken Rex now. If I cull him, I will no longer have brokens in my breeding program, no matter how many of his solid offspring I have.

This is wrecking my head a bit to be honest

As our domestic rabbits all come to us from the wild European rabbit and THEY dont have broken so where does it come from if only broken can produce broken?

I am NOT DOUBTING you!!! Not at all, just trying to understand. I have to confess though when I read the first bad news I thought "Right! Who said that? Aw HECK! Its someone I have to believe!" :lol:

 

[akane]

All domestic colors are random mutations. The genes didn't exist prior to domestic breeding. There are no wild blue european rabbits either. Nor red, sable, rew.... Maybe a black shows up every now and then since that's usually the first mutation but new colors are usually destroyed in the wild. They are recessive so need several rabbits of that color to breed them and they often make it easier for predators to spot so they get eaten and don't spread their color. It takes breeders carefully selecting for them to make them common when they do appear. New colors are happening all the time amongst domestic animals.

 

[skysthelimit]

All domestic colors are random mutations. The genes didn't exist prior to domestic breeding. There are no wild blue european rabbits either. Nor red, sable, rew.... Maybe a black shows up every now and then since that's usually the first mutation but new colors are usually destroyed in the wild. They are recessive so need several rabbits of that color to breed them and they often make it easier for predators to spot so they get eaten and don't spread their color. It takes breeders carefully selecting for them to make them common when they do appear. New colors are happening all the time amongst domestic animals.

Yes and once they get that mutation, since it is a mutation, and mutations don't pop up all of the time, and as Akane said, they are recessive, you would have to pair most of the mutations to get that same mutation. Like Rex fur, which is a spontaneous mutation, but if you don't have two pairs, you just don't get it, no matter how much you breed a Rex with something else. In the case of broken, something about the gene means you only need to have one to be broken (like Agouti and Tan are dominant patterns), but like agouti, if you are not broken (or agouti), you can't carry the gene.