My buns are American Chinchillas, but one of them is much darker than the usual chinchilla color. She's 3 generations out from her mixed ancestor, who was a NZW/Flemish mix according to her pedigree. Her fur still has the banding that's typical with chins (I tried to get a clear pic of it but wasn't successful tonight). (Yes she looks a little ragged at the moment, at least one of her 7 kits were barbering her and she's only been back on her own for about a week, so she's in the ugly grow-out stage, poor gal.) When I sell her kits, IDK what color to call them if I'm asked. Any help? I'm attaching pics of her and some of her kits. I kept one of her buck kits from her first litter as my main buck, and I'm likely to try to breed my way to all this color, I love it so much.
Another Color Question
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I'd call all of those rabbits steel, the chinchilla version, aka silver-tipped steel (STS). It's not surprising given a NZ/Flemish ancestor, since Flemish are shown in steel (called steel gray) and NZ Whites often carry steel. What is surprising is that, since the steel allele combines with an agouti allele to produce the steel phenotype, I'm not sure how it could have hidden in chinchilla colored rabbits (which have the normal extension <E> and that is recessive to <E(S)>). I don't really know what to make of that.
The steel allele <E(S)> is a dominant allele on the E locus that affects expression of the agouti traits from <A>; steel reduces the agouti trim, and pushes the banding pattern of the agouti way up to the tip of the hairs. I think of it as super-extension, as it seems to pull the undercolor up the hairshaft, resulting in those effects. The thing is, I've found that the steel allele really varies in its effect on suppression of the agouti traits. Because of the stage your doe is in it looks messy, but compare how her rings are arranged on the hairshafts to the non-steeled chinchilla rings below, then the gold-tipped steel (GTS, sorry for the poor focus but it's all I have):
Also look at her "trim." She seems to be missing the silver inner ears, and I can't see her underside, but the kits very obviously do not have the typical chinchilla white bellies, inner ears or jowl markings. Below is the belly color of a squirrel (blue chin), which is the same as a black chin other than having slightly paler undercolor due to being a dilute:
I don't have a belly shot of a STS, but see below for belly color of a gold-tipped steel (GTS). This differs from a STS in that anywhere there is gold, there would be pearl.
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@Alaska Satin I could upload a pic of her whole pedigree if it would help but I don't suspect it would, because I don't think there's any way to prove the lineage of the older generations. Like just because it says American Chinchilla, I have no way to know they got it right/were being honest. But the pedigree has 5 past generations on it and it looks like all of her ancestors prior to the NZW/Flemish doe were American Chinchilla. However, the NZW/Flemish has nothing listed in her past, like she must not have had a pedigree or something.
I'll look for the banding on Gaia's son, who's 10mo now and my only buck at the moment. She and her offspring definitely do NOT have the white belly and trim features, but my other buns do. Genetics confuses the crap out of me and always has... I still have to think REALLY hard to remember if homozygous = same gene from both parents, for crying out loud hahahaha
I'll look for the banding on Gaia's son, who's 10mo now and my only buck at the moment. She and her offspring definitely do NOT have the white belly and trim features, but my other buns do. Genetics confuses the crap out of me and always has... I still have to think REALLY hard to remember if homozygous = same gene from both parents, for crying out loud hahahaha
Yeah, and if you start out trying to understand genetics with a tricky steel in the mix (actually several of the E series alleles are tricky), you may end up in a semi-permanent state of confusion!
The big question in my mind is whether both her sire and dam were/looked like chinchilla. The NZ/Flemish would have been the source of the steel, but it's perplexing to me how it could have "hidden" in two ensuing generations of rabbits with chinchilla phenotypes. Let me see if I can explain why that would be so perplexing...bear with me...
The "basic" or wild type rabbit is chestnut. It's an agouti with the most common (and with only one exception, the most dominant) alleles (an allele being a form of the gene). Many genes have multiple options/alleles, but usually one of them dominates - kind of covers up - any of the others in the same series.
A = agouti
B = black
C = full color
D = dense
E = normal extension of ring color,meaning how the rings are arranged on each hair. This is the only one that's not the most most dominant form of the gene, which is very important for this discussion. Specifically, the steel allele <E(S)> is more dominant than the normal <E>.
It's helpful to me to realize that some loci (plural for locus, which is a specific spot on the chromosome) code for color (B C and D), while others control the pattern (A and E).
There are a few other loci that produce patterns like broken, silver, dutch, etc., but we don't need to talk about those here.
So...
CHESTNUT is <A_B_C_D_E_>. When you start substituting less common alleles for the dominant ones at any of those five loci, you change either the color, or the pattern, or both.
CHINCHILLA: To "make" a chinchilla instead of a basic chestnut, all it takes is one substitution, at the C locus (a color allele). Replace the <C> with the chin allele <c(chd)>, and the rabbit's pigment-making cells (melanocytes) can't make any yellow-based colors (gold, red, orange, tan, fawn, etc.). All that can be made are dark-based colors (black, blue, chocolate, lilac). So a chinchilla is just a black-and-white version of a chestnut, with the orange removed (no yellow pigment on the middle ring, so it looks pearly white). So, chinchilla is <A_B_c(chd)_D_E_>.
STEEL (GTS): To "make" a steel instead of a chestnut, it similarly takes one substitution, at the E locus (a pattern allele). The steel allele doesn't change the color - there is still both black and gold color on the rabbit (it's also called a "gold-tipped" steel, GTS). What the allele <E(S)> does is stretch the undercolor up the hairshaft, in effect smooshing the agouti bands up towards the tip of the hair, and making the belly fur and trim (both of which are shorter hairs) look darker. So a steel is a chestnut agouti with a slightly messed-up ring pattern and trim: <A_B_C_D_E(S)_>
SILVER-TIPPED STEEL (STS): When you put both of those alleles together - a color and a pattern change - you get a rabbit with no gold and a messed-up pattern, aka a silver-tipped steel: <A_B_c(chd)_D_E(S)_>
So the mystery for me is related to the fact that when a chinchilla rabbit has a steel allele, it will not look like a normal chinchilla, because the steel allele <E(S)> is dominant to the normal allele <E>. That means steel can't "hide" in an agouti rabbit (unless there are two steel alleles, but that's a different issue - the rabbit still would not look like a chinchilla). So if a rabbit with both chinchilla and agouti alleles also has a steel allele, it should look like a silver-tipped steel (STS), not a chinchilla. It may be that rabbits listed as chinchilla on the pedigree were actually really STS all along. But if there's one thing I know for sure in genetics, it's that I should never say never (or always).
So I'm wondering if you have, or saw, your doe's parents, and if they looked like normal chinchillas. You'd be looking for that tell-tale dark belly, since the surface color can be confusing. After a while you start to really see the difference, but it's something that confuses a lot of people at the outset, especially since both steels and agoutis develop their patterns as they grow. You may also start to notice steel kits in the nest box, by their dark ear lining, instead of the light inner ears of a regular agouti.
If you really like the steels, just keep breeding them, and eventually all you'll get will be steels. Oh, except for that exception I mentioned about two steel alleles... that makes a "supersteel" which looks like a plain black rabbit.
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Thank you for breaking this down and explaining it so well!Yeah, and if you start out trying to understand genetics with a tricky steel in the mix (actually several of the E series alleles are tricky), you may end up in a semi-permanent state of confusion!
The big question in my mind is whether both her sire and dam were/looked like chinchilla. The NZ/Flemish would have been the source of the steel, but it's perplexing to me how it could have "hidden" in two ensuing generations of rabbits with chinchilla phenotypes. Let me see if I can explain why that would be so perplexing...bear with me...
The "basic" or wild type rabbit is chestnut. It's an agouti with the most common (and with only one exception, the most dominant) alleles (an allele being a form of the gene). Many genes have multiple options/alleles, but usually one of them dominates - kind of covers up - any of the others in the same series.
A = agouti
B = black
C = full color
D = dense
E = normal extension of ring color,meaning how the rings are arranged on each hair. This is the only one that's not the most most dominant form of the gene, which is very important for this discussion. Specifically, the steel allele <E(S)> is more dominant than the normal <E>.
It's helpful to me to realize that some loci (plural for locus, which is a specific spot on the chromosome) code for color (B C and D), while others control the pattern (A and E).
There are a few other loci that produce patterns like broken, silver, dutch, etc., but we don't need to talk about those here.
So...
CHESTNUT is <A_B_C_D_E_>. When you start substituting less common alleles for the dominant ones at any of those five loci, you change either the color, or the pattern, or both.
CHINCHILLA: To "make" a chinchilla instead of a basic chestnut, all it takes is one substitution, at the C locus (a color allele). Replace the <C> with the chin allele <c(chd)>, and the rabbit's pigment-making cells (melanocytes) can't make any yellow-based colors (gold, red, orange, tan, fawn, etc.). All that can be made are dark-based colors (black, blue, chocolate, lilac). So a chinchilla is just a black-and-white version of a chestnut, with the orange removed (no yellow pigment on the middle ring, so it looks pearly white). So, chinchilla is <A_B_c(chd)_D_E_>.
STEEL (GTS): To "make" a steel instead of a chestnut, it similarly takes one substitution, at the E locus (a pattern allele). The steel allele doesn't change the color - there is still both black and gold color on the rabbit (it's also called a "gold-tipped" steel, GTS). What the allele <E(S)> does is stretch the undercolor up the hairshaft, in effect smooshing the agouti bands up towards the tip of the hair, and making the belly fur and trim (both of which are shorter hairs) look darker. So a steel is a chestnut agouti with a slightly messed-up ring pattern and trim: <A_B_C_D_E(S)_>
SILVER-TIPPED STEEL (STS): When you put both of those alleles together - a color and a pattern change - you get a rabbit with no gold and a messed-up pattern, aka a silver-tipped steel: <A_B_c(chd)_D_E(S)_>
So the mystery for me is related to the fact that when a chinchilla rabbit has a steel allele, it will not look like a normal chinchilla, because the steel allele <E(S)> is dominant to the normal allele <E>. That means steel can't "hide" in an agouti rabbit (unless there are two steel alleles, but that's a different issue - the rabbit still would not look like a chinchilla). So if a rabbit with both chinchilla and agouti alleles also has a steel allele, it should look like a silver-tipped steel (STS), not a chinchilla. It may be that rabbits listed as chinchilla on the pedigree were actually really STS all along. But if there's one thing I know for sure in genetics, it's that I should never say never (or always).
So I'm wondering if you have, or saw, your doe's parents, and if they looked like normal chinchillas. You'd be looking for that tell-tale dark belly, since the surface color can be confusing. After a while you start to really see the difference, but it's something that confuses a lot of people at the outset, especially since both steels and agoutis develop their patterns as they grow. You may also start to notice steel kits in the nest box, by their dark ear lining, instead of the light inner ears of a regular agouti.
If you really like the steels, just keep breeding them, and eventually all you'll get will be steels. Oh, except for that exception I mentioned about two steel alleles... that makes a "supersteel" which looks like a plain black rabbit.
Wow, that was thorough. Thank you for taking the time!Yeah, and if you start out trying to understand genetics with a tricky steel in the mix (actually several of the E series alleles are tricky), you may end up in a semi-permanent state of confusion!
The big question in my mind is whether both her sire and dam were/looked like chinchilla. The NZ/Flemish would have been the source of the steel, but it's perplexing to me how it could have "hidden" in two ensuing generations of rabbits with chinchilla phenotypes. Let me see if I can explain why that would be so perplexing...bear with me...
The "basic" or wild type rabbit is chestnut. It's an agouti with the most common (and with only one exception, the most dominant) alleles (an allele being a form of the gene). Many genes have multiple options/alleles, but usually one of them dominates - kind of covers up - any of the others in the same series.
A = agouti
B = black
C = full color
D = dense
E = normal extension of ring color,meaning how the rings are arranged on each hair. This is the only one that's not the most most dominant form of the gene, which is very important for this discussion. Specifically, the steel allele <E(S)> is more dominant than the normal <E>.
It's helpful to me to realize that some loci (plural for locus, which is a specific spot on the chromosome) code for color (B C and D), while others control the pattern (A and E).
There are a few other loci that produce patterns like broken, silver, dutch, etc., but we don't need to talk about those here.
So...
CHESTNUT is <A_B_C_D_E_>. When you start substituting less common alleles for the dominant ones at any of those five loci, you change either the color, or the pattern, or both.
CHINCHILLA: To "make" a chinchilla instead of a basic chestnut, all it takes is one substitution, at the C locus (a color allele). Replace the <C> with the chin allele <c(chd)>, and the rabbit's pigment-making cells (melanocytes) can't make any yellow-based colors (gold, red, orange, tan, fawn, etc.). All that can be made are dark-based colors (black, blue, chocolate, lilac). So a chinchilla is just a black-and-white version of a chestnut, with the orange removed (no yellow pigment on the middle ring, so it looks pearly white). So, chinchilla is <A_B_c(chd)_D_E_>.
STEEL (GTS): To "make" a steel instead of a chestnut, it similarly takes one substitution, at the E locus (a pattern allele). The steel allele doesn't change the color - there is still both black and gold color on the rabbit (it's also called a "gold-tipped" steel, GTS). What the allele <E(S)> does is stretch the undercolor up the hairshaft, in effect smooshing the agouti bands up towards the tip of the hair, and making the belly fur and trim (both of which are shorter hairs) look darker. So a steel is a chestnut agouti with a slightly messed-up ring pattern and trim: <A_B_C_D_E(S)_>
SILVER-TIPPED STEEL (STS): When you put both of those alleles together - a color and a pattern change - you get a rabbit with no gold and a messed-up pattern, aka a silver-tipped steel: <A_B_c(chd)_D_E(S)_>
So the mystery for me is related to the fact that when a chinchilla rabbit has a steel allele, it will not look like a normal chinchilla, because the steel allele <E(S)> is dominant to the normal allele <E>. That means steel can't "hide" in an agouti rabbit (unless there are two steel alleles, but that's a different issue - the rabbit still would not look like a chinchilla). So if a rabbit with both chinchilla and agouti alleles also has a steel allele, it should look like a silver-tipped steel (STS), not a chinchilla. It may be that rabbits listed as chinchilla on the pedigree were actually really STS all along. But if there's one thing I know for sure in genetics, it's that I should never say never (or always).
So I'm wondering if you have, or saw, your doe's parents, and if they looked like normal chinchillas. You'd be looking for that tell-tale dark belly, since the surface color can be confusing. After a while you start to really see the difference, but it's something that confuses a lot of people at the outset, especially since both steels and agoutis develop their patterns as they grow. You may also start to notice steel kits in the nest box, by their dark ear lining, instead of the light inner ears of a regular agouti.
If you really like the steels, just keep breeding them, and eventually all you'll get will be steels. Oh, except for that exception I mentioned about two steel alleles... that makes a "supersteel" which looks like a plain black rabbit.
I didn’t see her parents, no. But I could always ask the breeder I got her from, we’re on good terms. I’ll do that today and see if she has any more info in her records.
One of my other buns, who is the standard chinchilla color & agouti pattern, has the same sire as she does but a different dam.
Part of why it suddenly matters to me is I’m selling 4 of her kits today and the woman asked if I happen to have pedigrees - she is planning to donate the trio to her son’s tech school program and the fourth will be a family pet. My program can make them but I’ve never done it and since I now have a reason to explore the feature I went ahead and started entering all the info and boy did I get confused. I don’t want to be selling rabbits with wrong info but it seems I might have been doing so all along this round, and I’m going to have to get ahold of my buyers. At least everyone else only bought them for meat production! But still, I don’t want to get any kind of bad reputation brewing.
I took a closer look at Gaia and got some pics - she has a lighter stomach, and the silver lining in her ears. Her son (Mikey) also has as lighter stomach color, and has the light patch at the nape of neck. I'm not sure what to call his ears. Gaia's neck patch is lightER than the rest of her fur, but still mostly grays. His sire was a purebred Am Chin.
I couldn't get a good pic of his banding - he was mad at me for interrupting breeding to try to get pics LMAO, I almost got bit! But I can describe it: it looks like the hair shaft is pearly white from his skin to 2/3 up and then all that dark gray, (steel?) not the "salt and pepper" like the others.
I may or may not add another buck, I'm waiting to hear from the breeder I got my original 6 from and both try to get more info on Gaia's genetics and also see if she has another buck with steel in its lineage. I'm kicking myself a little bc I just butchered both of my purebred bucks 2 weeks back. I never intended to have purebreds, but when i initially bought she didn't have 6 meat mutts so she sold me 3 purebreds at the mutt price. I was not thinking genetics at all then, just needed the space desperately and they got the short straw!
I couldn't get a good pic of his banding - he was mad at me for interrupting breeding to try to get pics LMAO, I almost got bit! But I can describe it: it looks like the hair shaft is pearly white from his skin to 2/3 up and then all that dark gray, (steel?) not the "salt and pepper" like the others.
I may or may not add another buck, I'm waiting to hear from the breeder I got my original 6 from and both try to get more info on Gaia's genetics and also see if she has another buck with steel in its lineage. I'm kicking myself a little bc I just butchered both of my purebred bucks 2 weeks back. I never intended to have purebreds, but when i initially bought she didn't have 6 meat mutts so she sold me 3 purebreds at the mutt price. I was not thinking genetics at all then, just needed the space desperately and they got the short straw!
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So, pedigrees are on the honor system, and everyone really appreciates it when breeders make their best effort to be accurate...but the reality is, rabbits are shown according to their phenotype (what they look like), regardless of their genetic make-up. That's not cheating or dishonest at all, it's just how it's done. But as you're discovering, even identifying the phenotype can be tricky! Just do your best, and correct pedigrees as you learn. All breeders have a learning curve (I'm still on it after two decades), so if needing to correct pedigrees makes some buyers unhappy, they're probably impossible to please anyway.
Most people, I would think, will appreciate your integrity in making corrections as needed.I have rabbits that are listed as "blue" on their pedigrees, but now I know that, genetically, they're self blue chins. When I know a rabbit's genoptype does not mach its phenotype, I usually note this on the pedigree for the benefit of future breeders. However, it gets a little more complicated when you register rabbits with the ARBA. A self blue chin looks like and is shown as a blue, so it will be registered as such (I can't register a "self blue chinchilla" Satin). I think this has the potential to become more of a discussion now that more is known about genetics and more breeders are interested in genetics, but I don't know how it could be changed without really changing the whole show system. And it's not necessarily desirable to change it. I can think of several instances where a genetic sneaker might be a better show rabbit than a rabbit that is genetically "pure."
Those still look like steels to me. Their overall color, and those very dark legs (no chinchilla markings on the inside of the feet) say steel to me. A steel is a kind of agouti, with the classic markings disrupted, but not entirely eliminated.
The bellies on your rabbits appear somewhat lighter than the fur over their backs, but that's because it is shorter fur so the steeling effect is a little different. The bright silver-white belly of a chinchilla looks like this:
And the feet of a chinchilla (or in the photos below, marten) look like this:
The steel's effect on banding and trim can vary quite a bit, leaving more or less trim on different animals. But I've found that steels very often have reduced eye circles, some bits of lighter ear trim, and a nape triangle, though it's less clear-cut, probably because there's less contrast between the triangle and the surface color. Below are photos of a GTS that was very heavily steeled, so had no eye circles or ear lacing, but did have a fairly apparent nape triangle. Sorry about the poor photos but they're all I have:
What's really got me wondering, though, is if your buck really has a pearly undercolor. Agoutis of any variation should have dark undercolor, except those with two non-extension <ee> alleles, like orange or red. But he does not look like a non-extension color to me! (In fact his surface color looks the same as the doe's on my screen.) A non-extension chinchilla is an ermine, which has the gold/yellow tones blocked by the chin allele and most of the dark color blocked by the non-extension alleles. It looks like a white rabbit with dark eyes, with a little or a lot of a haze or veil of dark ticking, especially on the extremities. I'd really love to see pictures of his fur, both when it's being blown into and single hairs.
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I'll take the doe out of his cage in the morning and I'll set myself a reminder to get some good pics of his fur and if I can comb out some single hairs (should be easy) I'll try to get some pics of those as well. Thank you again for being so interested and willing to help!So, pedigrees are on the honor system, and everyone really appreciates it when a breeder makes their best effort to be accurate...but the reality is, rabbits are shown according to their phenotype (what they look like), regardless of their genetic make-up. That's not cheating or dishonest at all, it's just how it's done. But as you're discovering, even identifying the phenotype can be tricky! Just do your best, and correct pedigrees as you learn. All breeders have a learning curve (I'm still on it after two decades), so if needing to correct pedigrees makes some buyers unhappy, they're probably impossible to please anyway.
I have rabbits that are listed as "blue" on their pedigrees, but now I know that, genetically, they're self blue chins. When I know a rabbit's genoptype does not mach its phenotype, I usually note this on the pedigree for the benefit of future breeders. However, it gets a little more complicated when you register rabbits with the ARBA. A self blue chin looks like and is shown as a blue, so it will be registered as such (I can't register a "self blue chinchilla" Satin). I think this has the potential to become more of a discussion now that more is known about genetics and more breeders are interested in genetics, but I don't know how it could be changed without really changing the whole show system. And it's not necessarily desirable to change it. I can think of several instances where a genetic sneaker might be a better show rabbit than a rabbit that is genetically "pure."
Those still look like steels to me. Their overall color, and those very dark legs (no chinchilla markings on the inside of the feet) say steel to me. A steel is a kind of agouti, with the classic markings disrupted, but not entirely eliminated.
The bellies on your rabbits appear somewhat lighter than the fur over their backs, but that's because it is shorter fur so the steeling effect is a little different. The bright silver-white belly of a chinchilla looks like this:
View attachment 43727
And the feet of a chinchilla (or in the photos below, marten, look like this):
View attachment 43731View attachment 43732
The steel's effect on banding and trim can vary quite a bit, leaving more or less trim on different animals. But I've found that steels very often have reduced eye circles, some bits of lighter ear trim, and a nape triangle, though it's less clear-cut, probably because there's less contrast between the triangle and the surface color. Below are photos of a GTS that was very heavily steeled, so had no eye circles or ear lacing, but did have a fairly apparent nape triangle. Sorry about the poor photos but they're all I have:
View attachment 43728View attachment 43729
View attachment 43730
What's really got me wondering, though, is if your buck really has a pearly undercolor. Agoutis of any variation should have dark undercolor, except those with two non-extension <ee> alleles, like orange or red. But he does not look like a non-extension color to me! (In fact his surface color looks the same as the doe's on my screen.) A non-extension chinchilla is an ermine, which has the gold/yellow tones blocked by the chin allele and most of the dark color blocked by the non-extension alleles. It looks like a white rabbit with dark eyes, with a little or a lot of a haze or veil of dark ticking, especially on the extremities. I'd really love to see pictures of his fur, both when it's being blown into and single hairs.
My buyer this morning was super grateful for my update on the coloring and said ultimately it doesn't matter since they are going into a meat program, but she's still going to pass on the pedigrees in case the school ever wants to get into genetic stuff. I told her she can give my info and I'll do my best to help as I learn more
OK so here are some better pics of Mikey's bands, belly, feet, etc. I got the "solid color" part mostly right but you'd swear I was 300 years old, forgetting the difference between pearl and gray in the 14 second walk from the shed to the house, SMH. That said it's not DARK gray but definitely not pearl. Also looks like there might be the tiniest hint of white at the very bottom, you can see it in the clump of fur pics . I have no idea how to take a good picture of individual hairs, I tried and tried LOL. The pics are the same clump just on 2 diff backgrounds, you can see the teeny bit of cream/pearl/white base clearly on the black background.
As a side note, I could not BELIEVE how chill he was to stand in the corner like that. I helped him up and he was so zen about it, I was stunned! Definitely keeping that personality in my breeding line!
I did get a message back from the breeder, she said she actually eliminated the bloodline of Gaia's sire from her breeding program, because she had a lot of issues with "mystery" genetic stuff showing up that should not have been possible if the pedigrees she got were accurate, and it happened with multiple bucks she got from the same rabbitry. So she's not able to offer much help in the Tracking Things Down dept, because she doesn't think the pedigrees she got were really accurate. But she did confirm that they are lovely!
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Ah, yes... steel! Especially that part about "mystery" colors popping up!OK so here are some better pics of Mikey's bands, belly, feet, etc. I got the "solid color" part mostly right but you'd swear I was 300 years old, forgetting the difference between pearl and gray in the 14 second walk from the shed to the house, SMH. That said it's not DARK gray but definitely not pearl. Also looks like there might be the tiniest hint of white at the very bottom, you can see it in the clump of fur pics . I have no idea how to take a good picture of individual hairs, I tried and tried LOL. The pics are the same clump just on 2 diff backgrounds, you can see the teeny bit of cream/pearl/white base clearly on the black background.
As a side note, I could not BELIEVE how chill he was to stand in the corner like that. I helped him up and he was so zen about it, I was stunned! Definitely keeping that personality in my breeding line!
I did get a message back from the breeder, she said she actually eliminated the bloodline of Gaia's sire from her breeding program, because she had a lot of issues with "mystery" genetic stuff showing up that should not have been possible if the pedigrees she got were accurate, and it happened with multiple bucks she got from the same rabbitry. So she's not able to offer much help in the Tracking Things Down dept, because she doesn't think the pedigrees she got were really accurate. But she did confirm that they are lovely!
Until you've spent some time looking, silver-tipped steels can easily be assumed to be "dark chinchillas"...which I guess they are, really, since that <E(S)> pushes all the color up to the tips of the hair. But because there's a distinct genetic difference, it seems appropriate to call them something other than a dark chinchilla. It's also confusing because many sources say that steels have gold or silver "tipped" hairs, which you can see below that they don't, actually - the tips are dark. @reh gives a good explanation of why a light-tipped hair isn't possible here:https://rabbittalk.com/threads/func...eceptors-and-pigment-types.37081/#post-359796
The good news, to me anyway, is that it's not too hard to keep track of where the steel is if you're breeding agoutis (like chinchillas). If you've got self <a> mixed in, things get more complicated, but as long as you've got <A_> (or even otter/marten <a(t)>), the steel will show itself. The only thing that will come up is an occasional solid black, but you'll know it's not a self black but rather a supersteel (when a rabbit gets two copies of the steel <E(S)>, one from each parent). If you breed chins and steels (with no lurking self alleles), you'll get chins and steels and supersteels.
Nice job on the pictures! Mikey is super cute! He looks like a pretty typical steel to me, with reduced agouti trim, including the belly which may be paler than the top color, but is still quite a lot darker than a normal bright while chinchilla belly. My guess is that it's related to the guard hairs being shorter on the belly and other extremities.
Getting photos of individual hairs can be challenging. I have a little handheld microscope (you can order them pretty cheaply) that I used for the photos of fur from a gold-tipped steel here:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/interesting-litter.37256/#post-362083
and silvering, here:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/close-up-hair-photos-for-banding-ticking.37095/#post-359969
In my experience, the undercoat on a steel is usually all gray; that pale base right next to the skin is pretty typical, and as far as I know it's not considered a band. You might find that in your normal extension agoutis, it's even wider. But a steel guard hair is pale (and extremely thin, so it kind of disappears among the undercoat) up to the place where the hair widens, at which point you can see it shift from a dark band to a pale band (either gold or white), and then end in a dark tip, like this:
I think you did get some evidence for steel banding in the photos you took. It looks like there are banded guard hairs, indicated by arrows:
Thanks for the fun discussion and the great photos to work with!
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Thank YOU too! This is fun to explore. I’ve thought about getting a microscope for doing goat fecal tests so maybe I’ll go for it - or maybe ask my fam to chip in for one for Christmas.
This is the one I have:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PVMRZQH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
The stand was cheap and broke right away, but the scope itself is serviceable. It goes to 1000x but I haven't needed it at that power so I don't know how the resolution would be. (You'd definitely need a stand for that!) For sure, it's not high-end lab equipment, but for under $30 it does what I need. And I'm a techno-dork but had no problem figuring out how to use it with the computer, so there's that.
