Another baldy kit... (more pics)

[Zass]

Don't you wonder why, since Rex just popped up, more Rex just don't pop up in other breeds?

We keep telling people that if they get a Rex in a normal litter, there had to be a Rex gene somewhere. Well yeah, they are a sport, so why doesn't it happen again?

I am sure it does happen - but it is much much much more likely that the parents have rex somewhere in their history .... at least until a different/new rex mutation arises that is not compatable with the current rex gene - as seen in Cornish rex, Devon rex and Selkirk rex cats

Breed two of these together and you get all normal coated kittens who are carriers - or Selkirk rex as this is a dominat gene :mrgreen:

I've read that balding, as seen in sphinx cats is actually dominant to at least one of those curl genes.

 

[skysthelimit]

It's not at all widespread, and I wonder what makes them think that it is? Astrex are as rare in Rex lines as blue eyed SF are in the breed. It happened, but when I asked, only a few people had ever seen it, and all the rabbits trace back to a particular person.

Try talking to the Rex breeders. They are a very open group. I talked to the old time breeders on the Rex forums. These are well known breeders who are in the National club, breeding 50+ years of Rex and MR, I'd think they'd know if there were Astrex ore even curly coats popping up in Rex litters all the time. A couple hundred people across the country saying they've never seen a curly coat in their lives, with two or three saying they've seen one but not really that curly, with one saying they've seen one Astrex in real life, but not from their herd. I think they'd be interested to know what the lines are behind those curly coats.

They will tell you Astrex are rare in the breed, and Mini Rex (except for people working in them). Astrex aren't that easy to find period. These people having curly coats pop up all over the place are a small fraction of the Rex breeding population that have normal Rex coats. People have done a lot of hard work to find them and keep them.

There is no great conspiracy, it just isn't true.

__________ Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:43 am __________

Don't you wonder why, since Rex just popped up, more Rex just don't pop up in other breeds?

We keep telling people that if they get a Rex in a normal litter, there had to be a Rex gene somewhere. Well yeah, they are a sport, so why doesn't it happen again?

I am sure it does happen - but it is much much much more likely that the parents have rex somewhere in their history .... at least until a different/new rex mutation arises that is not compatable with the current rex gene - as seen in Cornish rex, Devon rex and Selkirk rex cats

Breed two of these together and you get all normal coated kittens who are carriers - or Selkirk rex as this is a dominat gene :mrgreen:

Well that's my point. The probability of a random Rex popping up is small. Whatever caused the Rex mutation is not widespread in the population of rabbits. Even more small is the probability that Astrex pop up in Rex. Whatever caused the Astrex gene in Rex is not widespread in the population of Rex. You can get a random curly coat sure, but it's more likely that there is a subset of Rex who carry that gene, and the pairings are lining up.

__________ Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:32 am __________

Got another post from a 30 year breeder. She says there are several people working on Astrex Mini Rex around the country. This is probably where folks are getting their info from, as those lines spread around, and the Mini Rex is used in the v lop lines. If something is popping up, it's most likely coming from there.

 

[Zass]

Well that's my point. The probability of a random Rex popping up is small. Whatever caused the Rex mutation is not widespread int eh population of rabbits. Even more small is the probability that Astrex pop up in Rex. Whatever caused the Astrex gene in Rex is not widespread in the population of Rex. You can get a random curly coat sure, but it's more likely that there is a subset of Rex who carry that gene, and the pairings are lining up.

MSD had at least one curly standard rex kit, I believe. Akane's seen curlies in her litters. Dumans Arc has a whole line. Other members on here can seen them crop up. You know all that better than I do though. I suppose you have had more time on here to see how many members are surprised by curly babies in their nestboxes, and how many never see them.

Here is the astrex group if you'd like to have a look.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/5929140 ... 7/?fref=nf
It may be why the Canadian Plush Lop's sometimes curly coat is grabbing my attention so much. With my proximity...it wouldn't be much of a surprise if someone felt that making velveteens would be easier if they already had rexed lops to begin with...

https://www.google.com/search?q=canadia ... d=0CB0QsAQ

 

[skysthelimit]

MSD had a wavy kit that molted out. Silky kit waves and curls aren't quite the same. It's not Astrex, nor does it happen a lot.

Akane raises MR. They are a whole other ball of wax. They are not just Rex, but a created breed, so that adds something to the mix. The body types aren't the same, nor do they have the same accepted colors, so there are more genes added to the fray.

Duman's Arc rabbits are from MR stock, breeds for them, and can tell you how hard it was to find them, how inconsistent the litters are, until a line is perfected. It also says on the site that Astrex can pop up in any other breed Not just Rex, it's a genetic anomaly not specific to any one breed.


RT too is a small sampling set. You need to converse with the national Rex and MR breeders. I started a big fight on the Rex page about this asking these questions.

V lops are from MR lines. The v lops that the Rex breeders are talking about, have no balding and curling in their litters at all. There are active breeders in the MR world working on astrex, it's in some of their lines. You gotta trace those back to the source, and see where you can find the balding and the curling. This is definitely not normal fallout from Rex lines, and shouldn't be in the v lop gene pool. <br /><br /> __________ Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:07 pm __________ <br /><br /> If the Astrex and v lop groups think that this is the norm for Rex furred rabbits, they aren't going to attempt to stop the problem.

It's like Rex breeders saying sore hocks are just the normal so no one breeds for better. It's a common problem, but it's just not true that everyone has it in their lines.

There is stock out there, lots of it, that is free from the problems you are having with the V lops.

 

[Zass]

It also says on the site that Astrex can pop up in any other breed Not just Rex, it's a genetic anomaly not specific to any one breed.

Yeah, this is where something that has been discovered about genes contradicts what that study published. Or...the TYPE of curling they were studying requires rex to show on the coat...but perhaps not every curl mutation in existence does?

I do believe that there is more than one curl mutation at work. And that it contributes to a lot of confusion and inconsistency in information about curl genetics.

I started a big fight on the Rex page about this asking these questions.

Everyone has an opinion. :roll:

I brought in a v-lop buck out of what I consider to be better lines to try and root out curl.
The only difference I can detect is that his fur isn't as soft, it's actually kinda coarse for a rex.
What worries me is that the current developer for velveteens sold me the buck who threw the second litter of curly and balding kits. She tells me it's not astrex, that crown balding is good, and claims it will produce better coats. Other breeders have jumped on that boat.

Another breeder got on the astrex forum just to show me a velveteen with full body balding like mine that never had curls, and to tell everyone that he thinks it makes their coats better. :shrug:

Having just got her first pass at convention, she's in a position to sell a lot of rabbits. Actually, I'm the one in a pretty shaky position, to be speaking against it on a public forum. Dumansark and I both checked, and we found at least a dozen v-lop breeders between us with curl in the lines. Not all lines have it, but it's going to become more common with the current breed leadership.

Silky kit waves and curls aren't quite the same.

Do you suppose what I'm seeing in the v-lops can be silky kit waves?

Because the thing is...the curls don't normally stick. But I know Mucky was a curly kit, and her coat isn't what I'd call a nice normal rex now that she's fully mature. It did LOOK normal and dense for a while. One other velveteen breeder has told me she has an adult with curls.
I believe she is also in the northeast US.

All of Mucky's kits have been curly, but when crossed to other rabbits (both rex and strait coated), the bucks who threw those kits have yet to produce a curl for me.

I haven't let anything but a velveteen buck cover her, because she's too valuable to me to be producing mutts. She due with a litter from the new guy in a little over a week. I hope that will reveal something about the genes.

Dumansark tells me it is Astrex genes I'm seeing, and she's probably the person most educated about it in the US.

If anyone is interested in exploring it further, I do have a pair of these velveteens that I'd be willing to sell.(or trade) They will molt out of their curls, and some curl may or may not come back later. :shrug: I can't say I really understand them all that well.

 

[Dood]

I don't know why we have to label it - whether I "astrex" or some other gene or a combination of modifiers - if it is detrimental to the new velveteen breed by predisposing to sore hocks it should NOT be promoted IMHO but I am already disappointed with the longer ears they are breeding for and the dwarf gene but that's another soapbox :mrgreen:

 

[Zass]

I don't know why we have to label it - whether I "astrex" or some other gene or a combination of modifiers - if it is detrimental to the new velveteen breed by predisposing to sore hocks it should NOT be promoted IMHO but I am already disappointed with the longer ears they are breeding for and the dwarf gene but that's another soapbox :mrgreen:

I agree with you on both accounts.
I'm not breeding them all for thin 15 inch ears and kit balding. They aren't just pushing for ear length now, they also want thinner ears so they can pose like e-lops.
It's a totally different definition of velveteen lop than I was accustomed to.

I don't need a bunch of rabbits that delicate.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

I just saw this linked in a fb group and had to post it here. This says their study found the hairless rabbits to grow better than the furred rabbits. Maybe whatever is in the hairless genes they had going were like the strong ones and somehow the genes you and the breed are having come up is genes that arent that resilient etc. Total guessing.
http://users.tamuk.edu/kfsdl00/operation_fuzz.htm

 

[Zass]

I just saw this linked in a fb group and had to post it here. This says their study found the hairless rabbits to grow better than the furred rabbits. Maybe whatever is in the hairless genes they had going were like the strong ones and somehow the genes you and the breed are having come up is genes that arent that resilient etc. Total guessing.
http://users.tamuk.edu/kfsdl00/operation_fuzz.htm

These genes I'm dealing with are altogether different, causing only temporary kit baldness, and never naked adults. The hairlessness I have is likely just a delay on hair regrowth after a molt.

It is an interesting study.
Hairless rabbits wouldn't grow better here though. :lol: They would never survive the cold we have 3/4th the year.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

Hey Zass someone kind close here just posted 3 vlop bucks for sale. She says hers have never gone bald and far as she knows thats an astrex thing and these guys shouldnt have anything like that.
I can send ya the info.

 

[Zass]

Hey Zass someone kind close here just posted 3 vlop bucks for sale. She says hers have never gone bald and far as she knows thats an astrex thing and these guys shouldnt have anything like that.
I can send ya the info.

Right, right. The new velveteen lops are going to have kit-balding though, because the current certificate of development holder for the breed is the woman who sold me the buck who threw these kits. She tells breeders that crown balding is desirable, and her bunnies just had their first pass at convention. She's going to be selling a lot of rabbits.

I actually DID find myself a velveteen buck who has no history of throwing curly or bald kits, and I drove down your direction to do it.
This sweetheart was just south of Baltimore Maryland. I feel lucky to have snagged him up before he was petted out for not meeting the new show standards.
[album]3067[/album]

I do know that the curl trait is recessive from test breeding my bucks, and I have a plan in place for working it out of the herd. We'll know for sure if everything alright in a few days when Mucky's kits get there fur in.

__________ Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:50 pm __________

This is the rew buck who threw the curls and balding. He's grown into something that doesn't look at all like what I had come to expect from velveteen lops. His ears are bigger, wider, lower, and MUCH thinner and more delicate. I guess this is where velveteens are currently headed...where width of ear has become a big deal and under 15 inches tip to tip isn't even showable.

__________ Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:54 pm __________



__________ Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:02 pm __________

At least, one thing I cannot find any fault with is temperament.
I petted out the kits he produced, and I have no doubt they will make people very happy.