I agree w/ Legacy completely!!!!!! There is no due process when it comes to animal breeders. In TX there is a law that says dog/cat breeders (not sure what other animals it applies to) have to pay a fee to go to court and fight a seizure!!!!! The accused has to pay some clueless person a ridiculous amount of money to care for their own animals and the accused has to come up w/ that money right away, or they forfeit their animals. Sorry but that's BS and it goes against our constituion. It's bad enough when they threaten people w/ excessive fines to get them to "voluntarily" sign over their animals, but now, in TX of all places, you pay upfront or you lose everything. I believe this fee is also non-refundable. Quite the racket, huh?
Another animal seizure including rabbits
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SatinsRule
Well-known member
ottersatin":3omv1h2z said:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFUDEmMjC-c
Thank you Billy,
you know what I think?
I mean, I like trees and wooded areas as well as the next Guy or Gal,
but I think that group is:
Out of there Ever-Lovin minds!
Ottersatin.ldtimer:
Otter, I love going camping and hunting as much as anyone who's done either or both, and I think it's refreshing for the body to do so, but I am NOT going to worship mother nature.
I had a long response typed out and have erased it as it is inevitable that the personal attack, as opposed to discussion, will continue (from a few). It probably will anyhow but I don't think anyone personally is wrong - I just think we have had varied experiences which colours our perceptions and beliefs.
It sounds like things in Canada are very different to the States.(ie judges are no longer lawyers and can't be disbarred here - a little detail but an important one as they are appointed not elected adn therefore tend to not make decisions on immediately political grounds - we have a range of quality in our judges too though)
I do not agree with the agenda of HSUS or PETA as set out above.
Curly Sue -I think keeping an animal as a pet in a tiny, filthy cage and not interacting with it or otherwise enriching it's life is cruel.
Probably enough in this to get shot again ... despite my efforts
go ahead ...
It sounds like things in Canada are very different to the States.(ie judges are no longer lawyers and can't be disbarred here - a little detail but an important one as they are appointed not elected adn therefore tend to not make decisions on immediately political grounds - we have a range of quality in our judges too though)
I do not agree with the agenda of HSUS or PETA as set out above.
Curly Sue -I think keeping an animal as a pet in a tiny, filthy cage and not interacting with it or otherwise enriching it's life is cruel.
Probably enough in this to get shot again ... despite my efforts
go ahead ...
SatinsRule
Well-known member
Judges here still tend to be members of the Bar Association, and as you described in Canada, there is a pretty big range of the quality of their decisions. Look at our supreme court decisions sometime, and you'll get an idea of how and why they are appointed. A couple of cases to pay attention to are cases like Heller vs DC and the more recent SCOTUS challenge to Chicago's gun ban. Once you see who voted how, take a serious look at which president appointed those justices and you'll see the decisions were voted on based on strict party lines, something which ought never to happen when it comes down to interpreting and applying our constitution.
The local court judge in Colorado who presides over the 6 Bells case made a personal, agenda-driven decision and violated the owner's constitutional right to due process. Of course, getting any higher court to override the decision is where the magic act is likely to never happen. There is simply too much money behind the animal rights and left-wing environmental movements in this country with factions of musicians and Hollywierd actors shamelessly pouring their own fortunes into organizations like HSUS and WWF. Pro-hunter and pro-gun owner organizations have been battling this nonsense for decades now, but their funding is much more established which allows them to be successful at doing so. Groups like the ARBA simply do not have enough money to succeed in the enormously expensive series of court challenges. This latest fight will likely be most heavily funded by groups like the AKC, but its success will ultimately hinge upon whether or not a bunch of smaller organizations manage to establish common ground on the issues and band together. Absent of that, this latest epidemic will get uglier as time rolls along.
I will concede this much. Until such a day that we as breeders police ourselves and hold each other to high standards of conduct within our own organizations and groups, this stuff will be easier for the anti-groups to exploit. I've said it before--there is no way for anyone to look at the squallor and filth that the rabbits at 6BR were being raised in and call it responsible breeding and ownership. What I don't agree with, again, was the way it was handled in the court as it pertains to the consitutional rights of the accused. The pity of it is that we will ultimately bear the burden of it, as well as the brunt of the aftermath.
The local court judge in Colorado who presides over the 6 Bells case made a personal, agenda-driven decision and violated the owner's constitutional right to due process. Of course, getting any higher court to override the decision is where the magic act is likely to never happen. There is simply too much money behind the animal rights and left-wing environmental movements in this country with factions of musicians and Hollywierd actors shamelessly pouring their own fortunes into organizations like HSUS and WWF. Pro-hunter and pro-gun owner organizations have been battling this nonsense for decades now, but their funding is much more established which allows them to be successful at doing so. Groups like the ARBA simply do not have enough money to succeed in the enormously expensive series of court challenges. This latest fight will likely be most heavily funded by groups like the AKC, but its success will ultimately hinge upon whether or not a bunch of smaller organizations manage to establish common ground on the issues and band together. Absent of that, this latest epidemic will get uglier as time rolls along.
I will concede this much. Until such a day that we as breeders police ourselves and hold each other to high standards of conduct within our own organizations and groups, this stuff will be easier for the anti-groups to exploit. I've said it before--there is no way for anyone to look at the squallor and filth that the rabbits at 6BR were being raised in and call it responsible breeding and ownership. What I don't agree with, again, was the way it was handled in the court as it pertains to the consitutional rights of the accused. The pity of it is that we will ultimately bear the burden of it, as well as the brunt of the aftermath.
SatinsRule":28zgs5m9 said:
Are you familiar with HSUS taking the horses in Izard county in 2009? I just heard about it. I could not believe what that poor lady went through before they dropped the charges. She had to be drug tested every week while waiting for court! There is video online of her explaining what happened. She fought Goliath and won--sort of.
I don't like the direction this thread is taking. Discussion and an exchange of views is one thing, but this has gone beyond that and is drifting from the original issue, which was a particular animal seizure in Ohio. I would prefer not to lock this thread, but I will if we cannot stick to the original topic.
Frosted Rabbits
Well-known member
In My Opinion-- any Shelter, rescue, etc, that has board members that are also active in law enforcement- be it Animal Control A police officer, or even a city council member or county Commissioner, has a serious Conflict of Interest within it's ranks. And Brody-- I Have cleaned up some of the aftermath of 'rescued' animals while volunteering at a shelter in Florida-- And I saw the irrational applications of some supposed abuse and neglect cases--An Angora rabbit, matted so tight to the skin that I had to 'slice' the coat off with a razor blade, as clippers would not fit between skin and mat, a dog so covered in ticks that it took me over 18 hours to remove them all-- But seriously, an animal in a good healthy weight being considered as 'emaciated', or a dog pulling ahead of the owner who is roadworking it being 'abused' Animal Planet no longer shows an epissode of Animal Cops in which poultry are being chased all over the place during the seizure-- the birds died as a result of the incorrect handling-- Animal Planet got a LOT of notices from John Q public about the PROPER way to handle poultry..
Something I do not like seeing-- is the removal of the "72 hours' to correct a situation AFTER notification-- I noticed that time frame had been removed from Ohio code--- the replacement laws went into effect less than a month ago--just in time for a raid to occur and fall within a 'legal' framework--I see 'manipulation' here...<br /><br />__________ Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:21 am __________<br /><br />
Ohio's seizure laws recently underwent a change-- and I only found this out a few days ago-- we HAD a 72 hour 'fix it' law, before last month- That os now gone, so this Ohio breeder cannot use that as support in court. Ohio also does not specifically name rabbits on either the farm animal or Companion animal lists-- anything not included on the lists would be evaluated, properly, at by looking at the housing situation-- outbuilding-- farm, in the human dwelling, companion animal.
When there is a negative history between a person who raises animals, and the local Animal Control-- the picture becomes muddied. I am thankfull that in my county-- the COUNTY ACO officer hails from a farm family-- but in this city, the ACO officer tends to look at dogs in healthy weight as 'emaciated' Ihope he never sees COnnor-- as COnnor looks downright Skinny when compared to the Lab guide dogs.
Something I do not like seeing-- is the removal of the "72 hours' to correct a situation AFTER notification-- I noticed that time frame had been removed from Ohio code--- the replacement laws went into effect less than a month ago--just in time for a raid to occur and fall within a 'legal' framework--I see 'manipulation' here...<br /><br />__________ Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:21 am __________<br /><br />
MAggie-- you are right--MaggieJ":2yfp4td7 said:
Ohio's seizure laws recently underwent a change-- and I only found this out a few days ago-- we HAD a 72 hour 'fix it' law, before last month- That os now gone, so this Ohio breeder cannot use that as support in court. Ohio also does not specifically name rabbits on either the farm animal or Companion animal lists-- anything not included on the lists would be evaluated, properly, at by looking at the housing situation-- outbuilding-- farm, in the human dwelling, companion animal.
When there is a negative history between a person who raises animals, and the local Animal Control-- the picture becomes muddied. I am thankfull that in my county-- the COUNTY ACO officer hails from a farm family-- but in this city, the ACO officer tends to look at dogs in healthy weight as 'emaciated' Ihope he never sees COnnor-- as COnnor looks downright Skinny when compared to the Lab guide dogs.
SatinsRule
Well-known member
MaggieJ":nrcaci77 said:
Maggie, I don't believe it's at all drifting from the original topic to include discussions of other, similar cases in which parallels can be drawn to the primary case in OH which is being discussed here.<br /><br />__________ Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:16 am __________<br /><br />
ilovehome":nrcaci77 said:
I have not seen anything out of Izard County. Since we're not likely to be allowed to discuss it any further here, please send me a link via PM. I'd like to see it.
SatinsRule, I think you are missing my point. I am objecting to the personal attacks and the generalizations about people concerned with animal welfare. This is not a simple issue and there is a whole spectrum of beliefs and stands. Reducing it to two camps, good guys and bad guys, is simplistic and counterproductive. None of us want to see animals abused or neglected and I believe we all take good care of our animals. So why all the personal animosity and defensiveness that I am seeing here?
SatinsRule
Well-known member
Why, Maggie? Because some of us have seen what ultimately takes place when "animal welfare" organizations get involved. In most cases, they are people who understand absolutely nothing about managing animals or their behaviors, yet they are exploiting every opportunity to broad brush us into the same category of people who do abuse animals.
There simply is no gray area when it comes to this battle, and it affects every single person who raises animals of any kind. We are naive and willingly ignorant if we choose to believe otherwise. The antis are rapidly shoving their agendas down our throats. God help us if we accomodate it.
There simply is no gray area when it comes to this battle, and it affects every single person who raises animals of any kind. We are naive and willingly ignorant if we choose to believe otherwise. The antis are rapidly shoving their agendas down our throats. God help us if we accomodate it.
I am objecting to the broad-stroke generalizations, particularly where they are directed at other RabbitTalk members. Look at your last post:
Everyone must agree with your take or they are naive and ignorant? Come off it!
SatinsRule
Well-known member
http://vimeo.com/19145473
The video in the above link accurately spells out what we are facing on and increasing basis in this country. Whether or not you choose to believe it is your decision.
The video in the above link accurately spells out what we are facing on and increasing basis in this country. Whether or not you choose to believe it is your decision.
SatinsRule":3i333tos said:
I am anti cruelty - and if that makes me an "anti" in your mind so be it ..
I am not clear on your use of the word "they" in this context
if you are speaking about people who make up the laws you are right
in my part of the world many animal control officers and cruelty inspectors (and they are distinct and different people) are well trained in both behaviour and health
and yes personal politics should not be part of agendas on either "side" if one can only see sides
Frosty - I'm sorry you had dealings with a rotten shelter - I wonder if they were
untrained, underfunded, understaffed or why they got so completely overwhelmed
This is part of why I can take no sides - animal cruelty is animal cruelty no matter who the perpatrators are .. and no matter the reason ...
Brody, many of these organization are full of 'Do Gooders'
who run on well intentions
AND HOW THEY THINK THE WORLD SHOULD BE
So now you have your front door rammed in by the sheriffs swat team
and hoards of people grabbing your rabbits out of your barn pens enclosures
shaking their heads and telling the POLICE 'that's not good' and "How Horrible"
BASED ON WHAT?
House Rabbit Society pamphlets that 'suggest' conditions better than most raise kids, let alone impossible for a commercial or even hobby breeder to build and maintain.
Wouldn't it be nice for every rabbit to have their own run, access to 24/7 food, use potty boxes, that are always clean.
The point is, in MANY of these situations it's not illegal activities that gets someones places ripped apart and many of their RIGHTS trampled on, but
the OPINION of a non trained, 'do gooder' who disagrees with how you raise your rabbits.
Don't believe me Brody, I bet I could walk through your rabbitry and find any NUMBER of reasons to close you down. ANYTHING, water bottle out, empty food dish, dirty dish, litter on the floor, flys...
That is what you are encountering, I don't mind someone who is for good husbandry (I refuse to use 'human' as animals are not humans, nor should they be treated like one) But too many whackos ARE out to get you. Hell, at the fair, about every 5 comment is something like "how horrible, they shouldn't do that to the poor bunnies"
who run on well intentions
AND HOW THEY THINK THE WORLD SHOULD BE
So now you have your front door rammed in by the sheriffs swat team
and hoards of people grabbing your rabbits out of your barn pens enclosures
shaking their heads and telling the POLICE 'that's not good' and "How Horrible"
BASED ON WHAT?
House Rabbit Society pamphlets that 'suggest' conditions better than most raise kids, let alone impossible for a commercial or even hobby breeder to build and maintain.
Wouldn't it be nice for every rabbit to have their own run, access to 24/7 food, use potty boxes, that are always clean.
The point is, in MANY of these situations it's not illegal activities that gets someones places ripped apart and many of their RIGHTS trampled on, but
the OPINION of a non trained, 'do gooder' who disagrees with how you raise your rabbits.
Don't believe me Brody, I bet I could walk through your rabbitry and find any NUMBER of reasons to close you down. ANYTHING, water bottle out, empty food dish, dirty dish, litter on the floor, flys...
That is what you are encountering, I don't mind someone who is for good husbandry (I refuse to use 'human' as animals are not humans, nor should they be treated like one) But too many whackos ARE out to get you. Hell, at the fair, about every 5 comment is something like "how horrible, they shouldn't do that to the poor bunnies"
it must be very different in the states -
up here the enforcement officials are quite busy and really are NOT looking for people doing the best they can by the animals in their care..
Jack - you are not going to find animals sitting on mounds of feces, with maggot or otherwise infected wounds, slowly starving, or piles of dead animals in my home .. and believe me here you can't be shut down for litter on the floor - an order might be written to tidy up and provide regular food and water but unless animals are grossly suffering our welfare agencies do not have the resources to bring in extra animals
up here the enforcement officials are quite busy and really are NOT looking for people doing the best they can by the animals in their care..
Jack - you are not going to find animals sitting on mounds of feces, with maggot or otherwise infected wounds, slowly starving, or piles of dead animals in my home .. and believe me here you can't be shut down for litter on the floor - an order might be written to tidy up and provide regular food and water but unless animals are grossly suffering our welfare agencies do not have the resources to bring in extra animals
SatinsRule
Well-known member
Brody, it's as simple as this:
We live in the United States of America, and as such are guaranteed rights under a document known as the Consititution. That document protects us from, among other things, being denied due process and unlawful search and seizures, and states that a person in this country is presumed innocent until proven guilty in court of law. Everything which is being brought about in the animal seizures is in volation of these laws.
Groups like WWF, ASPCA, HSUS have all stated their goals are to eliminate pet ownership in this country, and have gone so far as to define a "pet" as any animal which lives on or near the owner's residence. Now, define "near" for us. Is it within 10 feet from the front or back doorstep? 10 miles maybe? That is one of a multitude of examples of the broad language which is so often used in the ordinances and statutes under which seizures are brought about by these organizations with no legitimate provocation whatsoever.
You've decided to come on here and lecture us on these seizures, stating that if we kept the place clean and the animals cared for, that we would face no retribution for it whatsoever. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and if you actually took the time to watch the clip I posted up and listen to the documented cases which were so clearly discussed, you'd realize as much.
You'll not see me or anyone else from the U.S. coming on here and lecturing you on how the laws in Canada operate or how they are enforced, so don't bother lecturing us on how rescue organizations and ARA's operate in our country. Most are directly tied to and funded by the above mentioned organizations, and those are the exact people who are being bankrolled by our own government to enforce the law by however they choose to interpret the law.
__________ Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:00 pm __________
In this country, those groups have that latitude to enforce the law however they choose to interpret it, and are using the red tape which is our judicial system to bankrupt breeders of any animal you can name out of the practice of animal ownership.
We live in the United States of America, and as such are guaranteed rights under a document known as the Consititution. That document protects us from, among other things, being denied due process and unlawful search and seizures, and states that a person in this country is presumed innocent until proven guilty in court of law. Everything which is being brought about in the animal seizures is in volation of these laws.
Groups like WWF, ASPCA, HSUS have all stated their goals are to eliminate pet ownership in this country, and have gone so far as to define a "pet" as any animal which lives on or near the owner's residence. Now, define "near" for us. Is it within 10 feet from the front or back doorstep? 10 miles maybe? That is one of a multitude of examples of the broad language which is so often used in the ordinances and statutes under which seizures are brought about by these organizations with no legitimate provocation whatsoever.
You've decided to come on here and lecture us on these seizures, stating that if we kept the place clean and the animals cared for, that we would face no retribution for it whatsoever. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and if you actually took the time to watch the clip I posted up and listen to the documented cases which were so clearly discussed, you'd realize as much.
You'll not see me or anyone else from the U.S. coming on here and lecturing you on how the laws in Canada operate or how they are enforced, so don't bother lecturing us on how rescue organizations and ARA's operate in our country. Most are directly tied to and funded by the above mentioned organizations, and those are the exact people who are being bankrolled by our own government to enforce the law by however they choose to interpret the law.
__________ Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:00 pm __________
Brody":34zbwsem said:
In this country, those groups have that latitude to enforce the law however they choose to interpret it, and are using the red tape which is our judicial system to bankrupt breeders of any animal you can name out of the practice of animal ownership.
Satinsrule - I'm not lecturing you - Im sharing my thoughts and experiences
nor do I think it's simple actually I know it isn't
in fact I have commented (more than once I think) that things are obviously different in the States - I do think your perspective is different to mine as well - perhaps these two things 9country of origin and approach are connected perhaps not)
I have viewed many clips (you seriously expect me to think that all American animal welfarists are like the extreme tree huggers? give me strength!) - and I watched your horse clip until it seized on me ... seems to me that all the clips that have been posted have an agenda - presuming that limiting dog breeders to 50 animals would immediately affect the farm communities is a little one sided and potentially alarmist too
Canada has some of the weakest anti-cruelty laws in the "civilized" world - I stand by my assertation that I may have worked more closely with cases of true animal cruelty 9interestingnly enough on both sides of the border) than many who read this thread ... I am still at a loss to understand why you specifically can't discuss the issue without attacking me ..I find the discussion important and am not taking it personally -been doing this too long I guess .. but your tone is very hostile .. and not very Rabbittalk .. for lack of a better way to put it ..
nor do I think it's simple actually I know it isn't
in fact I have commented (more than once I think) that things are obviously different in the States - I do think your perspective is different to mine as well - perhaps these two things 9country of origin and approach are connected perhaps not)
I have viewed many clips (you seriously expect me to think that all American animal welfarists are like the extreme tree huggers? give me strength!) - and I watched your horse clip until it seized on me ... seems to me that all the clips that have been posted have an agenda - presuming that limiting dog breeders to 50 animals would immediately affect the farm communities is a little one sided and potentially alarmist too
Canada has some of the weakest anti-cruelty laws in the "civilized" world - I stand by my assertation that I may have worked more closely with cases of true animal cruelty 9interestingnly enough on both sides of the border) than many who read this thread ... I am still at a loss to understand why you specifically can't discuss the issue without attacking me ..I find the discussion important and am not taking it personally -been doing this too long I guess .. but your tone is very hostile .. and not very Rabbittalk .. for lack of a better way to put it ..
SatinsRule
Well-known member
Brody":zukottmb said:
And you want to know where it began? Here are some examples, and it's interesting to note that I had not even responded to anything you said until you posted these gems:
You came across as going out of your way to identify yourself with those same groups while lecturing us on how the laws operate.
Locking this down. Here at RabbitTalk, we require members to show a decent respect for others. Rudeness, sarcasm and personal attacks are not acceptable here.
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