Angora photo request

[judymac]

I'm trying to finish up some last details on the Angora color section, and I've found that some of my photos weren't suitable, or I just didn't have a good photo to illustrate the text. American Fuzzy Lop, English, French, German, Giant, Jersey Wooly or Satin Angora all will work. Does anyone have Angora photos (I'm trying to use a variety of ages, from newborn to weanling to adult) of the following colors they are willing to share?

• Otter (all colors)
• Marten (all colors)
• Fawn agouti (not rufus, need clear golden fawn as well as fawn with dark tipping (smut))
• Lilac Himalayan (pointed white)
• Black and lilac silver-tipped steel
• Sable steel (all colors)
• Brindled harlequin (all colors)
• A variety of harlequins

If you are willing to allow me to share these photos in print, please include what name (and/or rabbitry name) you want credit given under, and the rabbit's name and Angora breed if you happen to know it (sometimes we end up with old photos in our files that we never got around to marking with a name.) Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

 

[FantatsticFluffle]

I don't have any of those colors but I do have this weird english angora that looks kind of blue pearl like but with brown eyes. Do you need that color?

 

[judymac]

Sounds like an ermine, does it have chinchilla in its background? I'd love to see photos!

 

[judymac]

blue pearl like but with brown eyes.

Will be interesting to see, can you send a closeup that shows the eyes as well as the color on the nose?

 

[FantatsticFluffle]

I don't think he is ermine because he doesn't have any agouti markings. I do not know his background but he had a kit with chinchilla when I bred him with my black tort doe. Here are some pictures. I don't have a good one of the eyes right now. I do have one of his nose because he likes to shove in front of the camera whenever I try to take pictures of him.

 

[judymac]

I agree, the face color is too dense for ermine. This is a Himalayan pointed white (left) compared to ermine (right):

The ermine tipping isn't as dark as your rabbit's nose, and the coat is much lighter, a pearl white. When I look at your photos, I was wondering about the color near the face:


Is this due to shadows in the photo, or is the new coat coming in darker than the old coat? It definitely doesn't look ermine white, looks more pale fawn (cream). This is a fascinating puzzle. I looked at the buck's face:

I see what looks like some white hairs on the right side of his nose, but no agouti markings, no eye rings or white around the nose. But I do see what looks like fawn coloration to the left of the eye. This would be odd, as a rabbit with a dark nose and no agouti markings would be a recessive self non-agouti, as is the black tort. Breeding two non-agouti rabbits can't make an agouti patterned chinchilla (as chin is just regular agouti with the c(chd) gene instead of full-color C.)

So, something else is going on here. A pearl is just a tortoiseshell (a non-agouti rabbit with the recessive ee extension gene that turns on the yellow pigment), plus the chinchilla c(chd) gene, which removes yellow. So where the coat is normally yellowish, it becomes pearl white. If the buck was a pearl, he couldn't throw chinchilla kits, as the chinchilla patterning only works on agouti rabbits. Non-agouti chins look exactly like their full-color self rabbits, either black, blue, chocolate or lilac--the only exception is the tortoiseshell that becomes pearl.

So, if he isn't a tort, and he isn't a pearl, what is he? There is one thing I can think of--when you remove your Angora's coat, are there any dark markings anywhere else on the body? Or any light markings where the points are, which would normally be all dark (ears, legs, tail)? Could you take a photo showing the belly and legs? If so, the answer may be the elusive harlequin. Harlequin works in both agouti and non-agouti, moving the dark and light patches around on the body. Some rabbits with harlequin have minimal dark, looking like normal fawns (or pearls if they have the chinchilla gene.)

A harlequin agouti can look like a 'normal' rabbit, but often with the color just seeming a bit 'off', hard to describe, just a feeling something is different that you can't quite put your finger on. Harlequin colors in the agouti markings, so you can't tell by that. Before raising harlequins, I wouldn't have even considered such a thing, but I've seen first hand how the gene can affect color. What other colors did you get in the litter with the black tort?

@Alaska Satin, any thoughts?

 

[FantatsticFluffle]

I agree, the face color is too dense for ermine. This is a Himalayan pointed white (left) compared to ermine (right):
View attachment 39947
The ermine tipping isn't as dark as your rabbit's nose, and the coat is much lighter, a pearl white. When I look at your photos, I was wondering about the color near the face:
View attachment 39948

Is this due to shadows in the photo, or is the new coat coming in darker than the old coat? It definitely doesn't look ermine white, looks more pale fawn (cream). This is a fascinating puzzle. I looked at the buck's face:
View attachment 39951
I see what looks like some white hairs on the right side of his nose, but no agouti markings, no eye rings or white around the nose. But I do see what looks like fawn coloration to the left of the eye. This would be odd, as a rabbit with a dark nose and no agouti markings would be a recessive self non-agouti, as is the black tort. Breeding two non-agouti rabbits can't make an agouti patterned chinchilla (as chin is just regular agouti with the c(chd) gene instead of full-color C.)

So, something else is going on here. A pearl is just a tortoiseshell (a non-agouti rabbit with the recessive ee extension gene that turns on the yellow pigment), plus the chinchilla c(chd) gene, which removes yellow. So where the coat is normally yellowish, it becomes pearl white. If the buck was a pearl, he couldn't throw chinchilla kits, as the chinchilla patterning only works on agouti rabbits. Non-agouti chins look exactly like their full-color self rabbits, either black, blue, chocolate or lilac--the only exception is the tortoiseshell that becomes pearl.

So, if he isn't a tort, and he isn't a pearl, what is he? There is one thing I can think of--when you remove your Angora's coat, are there any dark markings anywhere else on the body? Or any light markings where the points are, which would normally be all dark (ears, legs, tail)? Could you take a photo showing the belly and legs? If so, the answer may be the elusive harlequin. Harlequin works in both agouti and non-agouti, moving the dark and light patches around on the body. Some rabbits with harlequin have minimal dark, looking like normal fawns (or pearls if they have the chinchilla gene.)

A harlequin agouti can look like a 'normal' rabbit, but often with the color just seeming a bit 'off', hard to describe, just a feeling something is different that you can't quite put your finger on. Harlequin colors in the agouti markings, so you can't tell by that. Before raising harlequins, I wouldn't have even considered such a thing, but I've seen first hand how the gene can affect color. What other colors did you get in the litter with the black tort?

@Alaska Satin, any thoughts?

Sorry for being confusing in my post before this. The kit was not chinchilla, she was a pearl (chinchilla+tort). I tought the question was asking if any of his kits had the chinchilla gene, which she did.
I think my buck is a sable point. He doesn't look a lot like sable points in most breeds, but he looks very similar to lionhead and fuzzy lop sable points that I have seen. Also his color changes throughout the year which happens more in sable colors than regular chinchilla colors from what I have heard.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I agree, the face color is too dense for ermine. This is a Himalayan pointed white (left) compared to ermine (right):

The ermine tipping isn't as dark as your rabbit's nose, and the coat is much lighter, a pearl white. When I look at your photos, I was wondering about the color near the face:
View attachment 39948

Is this due to shadows in the photo, or is the new coat coming in darker than the old coat? It definitely doesn't look ermine white, looks more pale fawn (cream). This is a fascinating puzzle. I looked at the buck's face:
View attachment 39951
I see what looks like some white hairs on the right side of his nose, but no agouti markings, no eye rings or white around the nose. But I do see what looks like fawn coloration to the left of the eye. This would be odd, as a rabbit with a dark nose and no agouti markings would be a recessive self non-agouti, as is the black tort. Breeding two non-agouti rabbits can't make an agouti patterned chinchilla (as chin is just regular agouti with the c(chd) gene instead of full-color C.)

So, something else is going on here. A pearl is just a tortoiseshell (a non-agouti rabbit with the recessive ee extension gene that turns on the yellow pigment), plus the chinchilla c(chd) gene, which removes yellow. So where the coat is normally yellowish, it becomes pearl white. If the buck was a pearl, he couldn't throw chinchilla kits, as the chinchilla patterning only works on agouti rabbits. Non-agouti chins look exactly like their full-color self rabbits, either black, blue, chocolate or lilac--the only exception is the tortoiseshell that becomes pearl.

So, if he isn't a tort, and he isn't a pearl, what is he? There is one thing I can think of--when you remove your Angora's coat, are there any dark markings anywhere else on the body? Or any light markings where the points are, which would normally be all dark (ears, legs, tail)? Could you take a photo showing the belly and legs? If so, the answer may be the elusive harlequin. Harlequin works in both agouti and non-agouti, moving the dark and light patches around on the body. Some rabbits with harlequin have minimal dark, looking like normal fawns (or pearls if they have the chinchilla gene.)

A harlequin agouti can look like a 'normal' rabbit, but often with the color just seeming a bit 'off', hard to describe, just a feeling something is different that you can't quite put your finger on. Harlequin colors in the agouti markings, so you can't tell by that. Before raising harlequins, I wouldn't have even considered such a thing, but I've seen first hand how the gene can affect color. What other colors did you get in the litter with the black tort?

@Alaska Satin, any thoughts?

He looks like a smoke pearl point aaB_c(chl)ddee to me, based on the color on his nose, which at least on my screen looks bluish rather than sepia.

 

[hotzcatz]

FWIW, I don't think angoras come in either martin or otter? Harlequin isn't a recognized color, either, at least in English angoras.

 

[Alaska Satin]

FWIW, I don't think angoras come in either martin or otter? Harlequin isn't a recognized color, either, at least in English angoras.

Martin, otter and harlequin aren't recognized in the ARBA Angora standard, but in the real world, all breeds can appear in all colors...and often do! Not everybody breeds to the standard, and even those of us that do sometimes breed non-standard colors on the way to something else (or by mistake!)... like the beautiful but totally unshowable tort, squirrel, sable, and steel Satins I have had in my barn.

 

[judymac]

FWIW, I don't think angoras come in either martin or otter? Harlequin isn't a recognized color, either, at least in English angoras.

Agreed, there are an amazing array of colors that are out there, but not acceptable for registration or show.