An oops litter with a new buck

[TerriG]

We had a buck show up at our house last fall. We found his owners and returned him. They complained that they really didn't want him, that he kept escaping, and tried to talk us into keeping him. We already had enough bucks, so we declined. The next morning, he had found his way back to our house. This time we just decided to keep him. He is a very sweet boy, good with our kids, and our grow-outs. He had no interest in breeding when we put a doe with him. All he wanted to do was cuddle. We had no idea what age he was, so we thought maybe he was older and sterile. This is a picture I found online of a rabbit similar to him. The fur isn't quite right. His fur is longer and finer than my other rabbits, and actually gets static-y when you are petting him. From what I can tell online, he looks like a broken black french lop (http://www.raising-rabbits.com/french-lop-rabbit.html)

Fast forward to about 2 weeks ago. I heard stomping out in the rabbitry when I was letting the dog out to potty. I went to figure out what was going on. (I had neck surgery almost 6 weeks ago, and at that time we only had a few in the grow-out cages. We decided not to stress over getting them off to freezer camp.) Well, one of the does in a grow-out cage was kindling and one of the other rabbits was freaking out. She had 6 kits. The one that looked like the buck was stuck, and doa. We lost another one on the wire a few days later.

My question is on the remaining kits and trying to figure out the buck's genetics. The doe is solid white with brown eyes.

These are the kits:

1 day old


Taken today, eyes just starting to open. There is a black kit, a broken kit, a solid gray kit, and then the other gray kit.


This broken kit looks gray, but in the light it looks almost agouti. I need to get a better picture in the sunlight.


Is this an otter? Belly, inside of ears, around eyes, and back of neck are light. I can't remember if under the chin is.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

look like a bunch of cuties I am not good with all the colors either but my guess would also be otter from the pics. does the fur right at the base of that kits neck have any variation from the rest of the fur on its back? I had a couple kits with my mutts that early on I wondered maybe otters but ended up gts, gold tipd steel. no idea, just tossin that out there.
and broken agouti on the broken kit.

 

[Dood]

The "grey" kits are sables. The one with white in its ears, eyes and belly could be a sable marten (= at_ B_ cchl_ D_ Ea) which is similar to tan and otters, but it might be an steel sable agouti (= A_ B_ cchl_ D_ Es_) time will tell

The one without grey is a sable (aa B_ cchl_ D_ E_) AKA Siamese sable AKA black sable

The broken also looks like it could be a sable marten as well

Could you post pictures of the doe and buck?

It sounds like your doe is a frosty and probably a sable frosty given the colour of the kits (=A_ B_ cchl_ D_ ee)

The buck might be a broken black (aa B_ C_ D_ E_) but there are several other colours he could be that can "look" black such as self chin, seal and steel

 

[TerriG]

I got some additional pics. I took them out in the sun, so hopefully they are what you need.

This is cow, the buck. He has brown eyes:


(That's not a white spot on his ear, it's just the sun)


His undercoat is gray


This is the doe (That is all her shading. Her tail and feet are white). Her eyes are brown:

Her dam:

Her sire:


The kits:




The kit with the light belly, ears, etc:

Under his chin, the top of his back legs, and the back of his front legs are all light too.

 

[Dood]

Well the buck certainly looks like a self black and not a chin or seal but I cannot rule out steel. French lops are a big breed and should be around 10 pounds so I think the buck is more likely a Mini Lop which can range from 4.5 to 6.5 pounds

And the doe is definitely a frosty

I would expect a steel sable to have a darker belly so I am leaning more towards sable marten for this kit

 

[TerriG]

I haven't weighed him, but he is the size of our meat rabbits which run 8-10 lbs.

__________ Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:29 am __________

So based on what I am understanding you to say Dood, the buck carries the genetics for us to get agouties, martens, and otters? He obviously carries black too. I don't really understand how the broken gene works, so I will have to research that. We have lost or had to cull all of our stock that carried the genetics (can't remember the exact gene right now, dang pain meds) for agouti, marten, otter, and black. My kids were asking me to look for some stock to bring that back. Any chance of getting chins? That's the other thing we used to get that the kids loved.

These are meat rabbits, although we either keep or sell the ones with GREAT personalities. My son works hides, and he misses having some of the other colors. Just trying to figure out what options we have with this new buck.

Thanks for all your help! <br /><br /> __________ Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:26 pm __________ <br /><br /> I weighed him tonight 7 1/2 lbs. We estimate his birth as spring 2014, so almost a year and a half old. (His previous owner is the aunt of my son's best friend, so it is an educated guess)

 

[Dood]

So based on what I am understanding you to say Dood, the buck carries the genetics for us to get agouties, martens, and otters?

No.

The buck cannot carry agouti or otter (well, unless he is an agouti steel, but I doubt that) and it must be your doe who carries otter/tan/marten and she is a frosty so she is the one that's agouti based, the buck just carries recessives that will allow these colours to show in the kits, he is self which is recessive to otter, and probably has himilayan or REW which is recessive to sable

I doubt you'd get chinchilla out of these two but it is possible it just didn't crop up in this litter

Broken is a dominant trait and cannot be secretly carried - a broken rabbit should always produce some broken kits

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

ok I am bad with the 'real' letters for the genes but this is my understanding of brokens vs solid color..

solid color: SS
broken: Ss
Charlie: ss
so the solid color is dominant and most likely. brokens are part dominant solid and part recessive broken. charlies are recessive broken.

SS bred to Ss (solid to broken) will get you litters with odds of 50% SS (solid) and 50% Ss (broken).
Ss bred to Ss (broken to broken) will get you litters with odds of 25% solid, 50% broken, and 25% Charlie
SS bred to ss (solid to Charlie) will get you litter odds of 100% broken.
Ss bred to ss (broken to Charlie) will get you litter odds of 50% broken and 50% Charlie.

 

[Dood]

ok I am bad with the 'real' letters for the genes but this is my understanding of brokens vs solid color..

solid color: SS
broken: Ss
Charlie: ss
so the solid color is dominant and most likely. brokens are part dominant solid and part recessive broken. charlies are recessive broken.

Incorrect, broken and charlie are dominant while solid is recessive

SS bred to Ss (solid to broken) will get you litters with odds of 50% SS (solid) and 50% Ss (broken).
Ss bred to Ss (broken to broken) will get you litters with odds of 25% solid, 50% broken, and 25% Charlie
SS bred to ss (solid to Charlie) will get you litter odds of 100% broken.
Ss bred to ss (broken to Charlie) will get you litter odds of 50% broken and 50% Charlie.

Not quite

"EN" ( or "En" ) and "en" are used for the broken/solid colour locus and stands for English spot which was the first breed developed with this colour

It is dominant so only one gene is needed to get the broken pattern (ENen) they should pass their broken gene to 50% to their kits and their "not broken" gene to 50%

Two genes (ENEN) usually create a "Charlie" pattern which is a mostly white rabbit, but not always. These can only pass on a broken gene so 100% of their kits will be broken (or Charlie) patterned.

A rabbit without the broken gene is "solid" and designated "enen"

There are less understood modifiers that can increase the white areas creating a "false Charlie" or less white and creating "booted brokens"

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

uhhhh.... **head explosion**

ok now that I read it twice, went and made a sandwich, then come back... lets try this again lol

so..
EN : broken gene
broken : dominant
solid : recessive
ENen : broken
enen : solid
ENEN : Charlie

ok so I think this is slowly sinking in.. slowly.. hahaha. I had wondered about false charlies and booteds. I have had booteds before. I had a Charlie LH that after I understood the genes more makes me SERIOUSLY WISH I had a TIME MACHINE so I could go and get her and the harli buck and try for some tri kits <3 ohh tris are so cute.. lol anyway..

ohhhh aside thought... would that maybe be the same modifiers that cause the dreaded white on the harlis?

 

[TerriG]

So based on what I am understanding you to say Dood, the buck carries the genetics for us to get agouties, martens, and otters?

No.

The buck cannot carry agouti or otter (well, unless he is an agouti steel, but I doubt that) and it must be your doe who carries otter/tan/marten and she is a frosty so she is the one that's agouti based, the buck just carries recessives that will allow these colours to show in the kits, he is self which is recessive to otter, and probably has himilayan or REW which is recessive to sable

I doubt you'd get chinchilla out of these two but it is possible it just didn't crop up in this litter

Broken is a dominant trait and cannot be secretly carried - a broken rabbit should always produce some broken kits

We thought we had lost all the agouti out of our lines. That was one of the ones my kids were sad about (our very first 2 does were agouti). Thank you for clearing this up!

 

[Dood]

Ruby and thumper are agouti based - have they since passed?

 

[TerriG]

Ruby has. Thumper is still around, but we only get the shaded or palomino color (unless we put him with a torte, then we get torte's too) out of him. Our original does were chestnut agouti. Ruby and Thumper were stock we bought. <br /><br /> __________ Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:47 am __________ <br /><br /> These four kits were all does and are being grown out. The Sable coat has been interesting to watch! It changes so much. I will have to get some new pics sometime.