Agouti colored meat rabbits with SF coat, project progress

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Zass

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A pet project of mine for the last few years has been trying to get agouti colors in chestnut, chocolate agouti, opal and lynx in my meat rabbits. They are to have SF style standup coats and density, but with calm and docile personalities and no fear or aggression in does.
Chinchilla shades would be fun too, right?
I'm working closely with another breeder on this, since neither one of us has enough holes to tackle the project on our own.
It's been slow because we have been working hard to keep hardiness, great mothering and milk supply, and good growth and meat traits in our bunnies.

It also took us while to find SF who were not genetic supersteels. The tendency for Sf to throw abnormally dark steels wasn't helping. I was only getting about 1/8 visual steels in litters that should have been 1/2 visual steels. Making selecting for growth, temperament and foxiness in those 1/2 SF steel kits very time consuming. If I get one kit I feel is worth saving out of a litter I feel lucky. A second round of culling occurs at puberty, to remove rabbits who didn't continue to grow fast enough, unnecessarily hormonal does, or more rarely, bucks with behavioral problems.

Anyway, these babies represent some of the the progress we have made.

Their coats do not look like much yet, but we hope to be able to select for improved foxiness in when we start crossing 1/2 SF to 1/2 SF.

My very docile Lilac GTS doeling, Feather.
Aa bb C_ dd Es_ 1/2 Sf. FG NZ and Lilac.
She is 6 weeks and over 3 lbs. She inherited that...featheryness to her undercoat.
High hopes for this girl. A lilac steel is a genetic lynx with one copy of steel "ruining" the coat. All of her kits will carry at least one copy of dilute and one of chocolate. 1/2 will carry steel. I intend to cull all self and steel kits from every future generation and work with only visual A_ (agouti) rabbits.
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(lighting makes a huge difference with her!)
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This 6 week old opal buck is out all my favorite bloodlines. :love: Although he wasn't born here, he has some of my SF line in his make-up, along with Pancake's father, and her mother twice on his pedigree. Known genotype based on parents: Aa Bb C_ dd E_ .
He's only 1/4 Sf.

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And lastly, Conlai, from a third rabbitry, a chestnut colored 1/2 SF 1/2 chinchilla or chinchilla colored mutt buckling.
Aa B_ C_ D_ E_ Lots of unknowns there. The second gene on his C locus should be either cchd or c right? I'll have to test breed to find out. He's growing well, nice personality.

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He could carry dark shaded /chin (cchd) light shaded (cchl) himilayan (ch) or REW (c) since all 4 are recessive to full colour (C_) and we don't know which recessive the chin coloured parent had paired with their chin gene.

Test breeding to a REW should clear things up - you should only get 2 colours which will be determined by the 2 alleles on his C-locus
 
Thanks, I always overlook cchl. :)

Himalayan is certainly a possibility too, since cali crosses are so common. I hope crossing Conlai to enough rew carrying does will turns it up, since I don't currently have a rew doe. I'd rather not add cchl or ch to the lines. Despite how mixed the genetics are, I have actually managed to keep everything pretty genetically strait forward, with only steel to really complicate things. At least steel can be seen to get rid of so long as I work with only visual agouti colors.

And while the topic is up, any idea what steel would do in combination with cchl?
 
This reminds me of some folks who have been trying to revive the Red fox for a while. I wonder how they are doing?
 
Shaded agouti and chinchilla (dark shaded) can be very hard to tell apart :( so I think steel shaded agouti would look a lot like a chin based silver tipped steel.
 
Dood":e5sjkuyt said:
Shaded agouti and chinchilla (dark shaded) can be very hard to tell apart :( so I think steel shaded agouti would look a lot like a chin based silver tipped steel.


Than it means I don't want it for sure.

The trick will be finding a rew doe who is free of steel!
 
From what I read, the rabbit looks a bit like a tort, but what it actually was wasn't clear, so I'd go with either a smutty Red or a Tort. Remember SF has a rather secret and sorted genetic history, anything is possible. I just got another blue eyed kit.
 
skysthelimit":3d8eqcjy said:
From what I read, the rabbit looks a bit like a tort, but what it actually was wasn't clear, so I'd go with either a smutty Red or a Tort. Remember SF has a rather secret and sorted genetic history, anything is possible. I just got another blue eyed kit.


I got the impression of a tort too from the standard I read.
A tort otter is also called a fox, and frosting one up with silvering should look a lot like the kodiak red foxes I've seen so many pictures of. http://mnshortdraw.deviantart.com/art/1 ... -430765762

Another project I lack the cage space for.

__________ Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:48 pm __________

hucklekree":3d8eqcjy said:
What happy and pretty rabbits. This is very interesting. I can't wait to read more on your progress!

Thanks! We do our best for them. :love: It's been a slow project. If only I had the resources to keep more rabbits!
 
My sentiments exactly! Poor hubs has made me three more hutches that add another twelve holes in the past three months and I still secretly *need* more.
 
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My 1/2 SF mutt girls at 8 weeks. The blue is "Heather" and the Lilac GTS is "Feather."


I like to grow out two or even three jr does if I need one.

I won't know what their mothering, litter sizes, or milk supply, or mature temperament is like without test breeding.

I'm finding it impossible to select them as kits. This time I was lucky, two big girls who are quite fluffy and foxy and docile to grow out and choose from. I'd like to keep both of these girls if I can, because their mother was my all time favorite meat doe.

The Lilac gold tipped steel doeling (Feather) is getting some patchy silvering.
I circled it in red, and you can also see the bottom patch clearly in the pic above.

Heh. I didn't really factor silvering into my breeding plans. OK...so actually, I secretly hoped it would just kinda...get lost along the way.

Not very realistic of me, is it? I've never seen silvering come in in patches like that before, but I have read that having just one copy of si silvering cause cause it. The si gene(s) seem to do whatever they want with little consistency. Modifiers? :lol: I know that I never had any white spots on any of my SF or their "purebred" kits, and never any white spots on any of the mutts without the silvering genes.

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Her color is totally dependent on the current lighting. Not much I can do about that. It's pretty up close, but tricky to photograph.
 
Some si combos come in really weird. The champagnes were always interesting with patches and streaks of very light grey on black. Now I want to put a thick rollback coat on a champagne. My large rabbits are restricted to 6 cages including grow out.
 
akane":2i0ycula said:
Some si combos come in really weird. The champagnes were always interesting with patches and streaks of very light grey on black. Now I want to put a thick rollback coat on a champagne. My large rabbits are restricted to 6 cages including grow out.

I always thought that silvering looked prettiest on a flyback coat, like on a silver. I dunno, the si is something that I don't mind, but am not especially seeking out. If I could just loose it and get a good long standup coat without it...that would be ideal, but I don't see it happening. Still, Feather looks pretty with her silver. The patchiness has mostly vanished as more of her adult coat came in. I can catch it on camera, but once I reduce the image to make it site-friendly, most of the individual white hairs vanish.

I'm just glad she's friendly, and so far lacks the silver fox neuroticism. I just need her to be a good momma and not have hormonal issues. :roll:GEDC9587.JPG

With so few cages, this project has been moving along in baby steps. The lack of cage space is a lot of the reason I was so upset that my SF were all super steels.
See, I had intended to be able to breed back to concentrate the fluffiness, and it had already taken me long enough to produce a SF buck who was suitable for the job, with good growth, hardiness, and carrying carrying both dilute and chocolate like I wanted. To discover my intended herd sire could never be bred back to was a massive setback...and I still don't have a buck that can replace him.


Well, the good news is that the breeder I'm working with just had a litter from a 1/2 SF to 1/2 SF pairing (both rabbits from my rabbitry, carrying one copy of steel each) There were both lynx and chocolate agouti kits present. If only one of them inherits the majority of the SF coat genetics...we might really be on out way!

I'll be crossing Feather here to the 1/2 SF opal buckling from her rabbitry pictured above. It REALLY helps to have partners to work with!
 
skysthelimit":1t0yel36 said:
Very interesting pictures.

Thanks! Those 1/2 fox does are all ready to breed to the 1/4 SF opal buck. Well...as soon as THEY decide they are ready :roll:

I also have a chestnut doeling out of the SF/Chin buck and one of my Lilac/SF cross does. It's frustrating that there was only one agouti patterned rabbit in a litter of 9, and no visual steels despite the doe carrying steel. Typical from the SF though.

__________ Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:20 am __________

1/2 SF chocolate GTS doe out of Pancake and my big SF buck.

The breeder who was working with her (on the same project) saved a chocolate agouti colored daughter out of her.
She was a good mom with a nice temper so... she's come back here to aid MY end.

That gives me... an opal buck, 2 lilac colored does(with only one copy of steel), a lilac GTS, and a chocolate GTS. A pretty agouti doe and a very foxy chocolate buck in growout, and some lynx and opal kits not yet weaned. All are some percentage SF.

The new generations do seem promising. I think were getting better color and longer fur with more standup quality. (pics forthcoming)

We trade kits and brood does frequently. I think we have 20 holes between us, and were neck deep in a project that we REALLY should have 40 holes for...

__________ Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:39 am __________

Most of my animals are 1st gen 1/2 SF. The opal buck I'm using is 2nd gen and only 1/4 SF.
My partner has sourced an unrelated purebred SF doe who carries no steel, AND has a nice disposition. We think she'll provide a turning point for us, as we'll be able to breed our best lynx bucks back to her to create a line with consolidated foxiness. :D
 

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JenerationX":1kbaxbuu said:
That looks like beautiful fur.

Thanks, she is nice and dark. If I was trying to make steels, I think she would have been a good one.
She's a first gen cross though, so not as foxy as I'd like. One thing I find really special is that she looks like her mother, Pancake, in the face.

I hope to get a good pic sometimes soon.

__________ Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:33 pm __________

Just updating on progress
The chocolate GTS lost her last litter for no reason anyone can fathom. She built her nest, had the kits in the right place, cleaned and fed them, but didn't remember to pull fur. :shock: After two glitch free litters of 9 for a different breeder, I'm rather surprised...I hope every thing is OK on the inside...
One of the lost kits was a chocolate agouti. :(
Well, here's try #2. Wish me :clover:

Chocolate gold tipped steel, and opal. I really just wanted to show how pretty the colors look together.
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And some blue and lilac based kits one from another pairing. I have three litters of similar kits right now, although the older litter had JUST ONE opal, and the rest were all steel and self looking. :roll:
HeatherxFrett.JPG
Not much to see here yet.
Always hoping for opal and lynx so that I can phase out all the steel carrying "self" does.
 
Looks like she'll be expecting. LOL

What's the difference between opal and blue otter? Is there any visual difference?
 
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