A few questions (updated 9/8/13)

[DogCatMom]

This might be the perfect thread for me to ask a couple of questions. (You'll note that I just joined this forum tonight.)

I've come to the conclusion that a wool-producing rabbit is not, despite previous information to the contrary, to be found in northern California rescue groups, shelters, humane societies, or other locations searchable on the Internet or the two locations I visited in person. Although both of the "in-person" organizations had lamented how difficult it is to place "Angora" rabbits because of the care needed for their coats, in fact the one white "Angora" shown to me by the larger group was clearly an Angora X of some kind. She had a very thin, wispy coat; when I asked how recently she'd been cut down/plucked, the adoption associate looked horrified and said, "Oh, we just brush and comb her!" I said, "But Angoras need to have their coats taken down regularly or they'll suffer from the heat and from wool block." "Well, this little girl doesn't need to worry about any of that." Hmmm.... That was on Tuesday of this week.

Two weeks ago, I visited a smaller rabbit rescue (which also deals with cavies, guinea pigs, hamsters, rats, and mice). They brought out a possible black "French Satin" and a white "Angora." But when I asked to see the other "Angoras" they had told me were there, I was told that the rabbits were all eating. It was a mess; that was the only afternoon for weeks in either direction that I had the *time* to visit the bunnies at leisure and make their acquaintance. Also, that night, my male dog decided that I wasn't petting him with sufficient vigor, so he hyper-flexed my wrist for me. No way could I hold a rabbit on my lap after that! Not until just a few days ago, anyway.

But it turned out that "all the rabbits were eating" because a "lady" had come in with food for them. I had dropped by on Sunday to explain my lack of a follow-up visit on Saturday (due to the wrist) and was staggered when the coordinator of the group--the only person over 25 associated with the rescue--told me that the woman who had come by on Friday to feed the rabbits "brings all their food." So...the rescue group has NO FOOD ON HAND for their animals?!

Given these two experiences, it looks like I won't be giving a homeless wool rabbit a new home but will instead be the first (and last!) home of a rabbit direct from a breeder. As a humane society volunteer and Bernese rescue volunteer for many years, it's a very odd feeling. So that I won't offend a breeder by the following questions, should I ask them at the wrong time (too early? too late?) in developing the possibility of adopting/purchasing a rabbit, I've aggregated them here--thereby probably offending ALL of you. (But I hope not....)

1) What age are the kits when the breeder makes the decision as to whether they'll be show rabbits or "just" wool producers who aren't up to the show standard?

2) Are adult wool producers ever returned to the breeder for rehoming?

3) Is a wool-producing rabbit the same as "pet" quality, or is it considered somewhat better than "pet" quality? (If so, then I should expect to pay a somewhat higher price, but not as high as for a show-quality kit; correct?)

4) I'm not fixed on the variety of Angora--yet--but unless I specifically select a variety bred within 4 or so hours of my home, I'll be dependent on having a very young rabbit shipped (I think), which is a great risk not only to its health but its very survival.

5) Should I expect my hypothetical wool-producing rabbit to be altered before I receive him/her? Or will that be my responsibility?

6) I keep reading about "bonding" among bunnies, but I also keep seeing that Angoras "should not share" living quarters. My rabbit(s) will live in my home office, probably in an ex-pen most of the time. Is there a territorial problem such that Angoras do not bond? Would two ex-pens be better? Or does this non-sharing rule apply to rabbits living in protected outdoor quarters (i.e., cages) where there simply isn't room for two rabbits?

I'm definitely willing to wait, now that my original plan for helping a rabbit who has lost his/her home get a new one seems to have fallen apart. I'm also a little rocky emotionally, as I lost my female Bernese Mtn. Dog (13 years, 4 months old) two weeks ago today. She was legendary, one of the three oldest Berners that we knew of in North America at the time of her passing, and a most gentle soul. Her litter sister still lives, as does the oldest male Berner who edged Sister out at the National for the honored spot of "oldest dog in attendance." So I can wait for "my" rabbit(s) a few weeks, maybe a couple of months even....

Thank you for your help!

 

[Veliraf]

I used to judge my Netherlands for show quality at 4 weeks....then I would put them away until they were older before I looked at them again. I'm assuming different breeds and different lines would be evaluated between 4 and 8 weeks. Having never raised angoras I can't comment of their wool qualities. I would never take an animal back once it had left my rabbitry- biosecurity risks really aren't something to be taken lightly. I did go to shows- but I was there and aware of what was going on around me- when someone else has the rabbits, I have no idea what they've done with it/exposed it to. You would most likely be responsible for spaying/neutering your rabbit. A girl who worked for me had a bunch of pet rabbits- she had great big hutches with attached runs- her first two rabbit did not get along- so she got a 3rd- who got along with one of the 2, but not the other......the 2 lived together. She felt the third was lonely- so she got another.....they also did not get along- by the time she was done she had 8 rabbits, 2 to a hutch/run. You'd probably be better off keeping them seperate

 

[Dood]

I have never had Angoras but can answer some of your questions and hypothesis on others. You may wish to ask the administrators to move this to the wool forum as you will get more informed answers there

1) What age are the kits when the breeder makes the decision as to whether they'll be show rabbits or "just" wool producers who aren't up to the show standard? rabbits are usually sold at 8 weeks old so I would expect the decision would be made by then. The breeder may hold onto kits if they see some potential and either keep them or sell them depending on how they turn out

2) Are adult wool producers ever returned to the breeder for rehoming? Most breeders quarantine new rabbits for at least 30 days and not everyone has the space to do this or they may already have buns in the quarantine area. It cannot hurt to ask but I would think that in most barns, any returned animals would be euthanized to prevent the herd from catching something

3) Is a wool-producing rabbit the same as "pet" quality, or is it considered somewhat better than "pet" quality? (If so, then I should expect to pay a somewhat higher price, but not as high as for a show-quality kit; correct?) from what I have gleemed from reading posts on this site is that some fur is considered a better quality for spinning and will fetch a better price, however if a rabbit has a fault, such as being too big according to the standard, they would fall under the category of pet quality but still have perfectly usable wool

4) I'm not fixed on the variety of Angora-yet--but unless I specifically select a variety bred within 4 or so hours of my home, I'll be dependent on having a very young rabbit shipped (I think), which is a great risk not only to its health but its very survival.

5) Should I expect my hypothetical wool-producing rabbit to be altered before I receive him/her? Or will that be my responsibility? No, rabbits are generally not neutered unti over 5 months and the cost is quite prohibitive so it is highly unlikely you would be getting a neutered rabbit from a breeder

6) I keep reading about "bonding" among bunnies, but I also keep seeing that Angoras "should not share" living quarters. My rabbit(s) will live in my home office, probably in an ex-pen most of the time. Is there a territorial problem such that Angoras do not bond? Would two ex-pens be better? Or does this non-sharing rule apply to rabbits living in protected outdoor quarters (i.e., cages) where there simply isn't room for two rabbits? bonding all depends on an individual rabbits temperament. If you provide them with enough space and different levels or hiding areas so they can have alone time then caging two rabbits together will go smoother but there are no guarantees they will still like each other their entire lives and may need to be separated in the future. It is best to raise two young rabbits together or a mother and daughter. If you plan to neuter then a male and female or two males often form bonds better than two girls

I hope this helps

 

[Marinea]

First, welcome to RT, DogCatMom! You have found what is, in my thoughts, the best all around rabbit forum there is.

My thinking:

First, instead of adding to an existing thread, you might want to start your own when you want to ask questions. You will likely get more responses that way. Also, there is a sub-forum for wool rabbits, and that would be a great place for your particular questions.

I don't raise wool rabbits, so I can only address your last three questions.

As far as shipping rabbits, it is done regularly. Most often, it is done in conjunction with a rabbit show, and transport is set up that way. Speaking of shows, you might want to google for any upcoming shows in your area. That might be a great way to pick up a bun without going through the trouble of having one transported.

Most breeders do not alter their sale rabbits. I would think that a rabbit good enough to be sold for its fur would be good enough to breed. In addition, it is not always easy to find a rabbit savvy vet to do the altering, and it can be very expensive. Lastly, and I hope I don't offend anyone's sensibilities with this, but altering is not the "you must do this" thing that some folks seem to think it is. I believe that if you polled all the RT members (and most of the other rabbit forum members- if they were honest) you would find that there aren't many at all who have had unaltered buns that have developed the cancers and other things that the pro-altering folks rail about.

And to address the "what about the unwanted bunnies" side of the altering issue, I think that's more of a responsible owner thing than an altering thing. It is my belief that the vast majority of buns in shelters are the result of rabbits purchased for children that then lose interest. No breeders I have "met" through these forums have EVER sent a rabbit to a shelter.

And lastly, about the housing. If you want a rabbit for fur, it should definitely live alone, separately. To share living space invites issues with urine or poo stained fur, possible over-grooming by the other rabbit, possible injuries due to fights, and other problems.

One more thing. So sorry to hear about your beloved dog. I lost my "heart dog" two years ago in November, and he is still on my mind. They get their pawprints into our hearts so quickly.

 

[MaggieJ]

Glad to have you with us, DogCatMom and Veliraf! :welcome:

I've split your questions off into a new topic as you can see, DogCatMom. Unless a question relates directly to the topic already posted, please start your own thread in future.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

First let me say welcome to the forum!!!

Sadly a lot of "rescues" are little more than hoarders and they don't actually know much about rabbits, especially purebreds. I'm sorry you had that experience but it is common. I would also sanitize and wash everything you wore in the rescues...a lot of rescues have poor quarantine protocol and will opt to treat fatal, contagious diseases (thus keeping the pathogens around) instead of culling the diseased rabbit...I know my local small animal rescue is a place I will never go because of that. The last time I was there I wanted to dunk myself in a vat of bleach, I was horrified.

Plus to be totally honest, I don't think too many good Angoras get put into shelters because most Angora breeders are pretty picky about what homes they go to...so if you want a good wooler, DEFINITELY go to a breeder.

But it turned out that "all the rabbits were eating" because a "lady" had come in with food for them. I had dropped by on Sunday to explain my lack of a follow-up visit on Saturday (due to the wrist) and was staggered when the coordinator of the group--the only person over 25 associated with the rescue--told me that the woman who had come by on Friday to feed the rabbits "brings all their food." So...the rescue group has NO FOOD ON HAND for their animals?!

That...WOW. I have no words. Makes me wonder about their nutrition...poor rabbits.

As a humane society volunteer and Bernese rescue volunteer for many years, it's a very odd feeling.

I remember that feeling all too well. Also, off topic, but I adore Bernese Mountain Dogs. They are always so much fun to work with!!!!

1) What age are the kits when the breeder makes the decision as to whether they'll be show rabbits or "just" wool producers who aren't up to the show standard?

Depends on the breeder and on the rabbit in question. I know, probably not a helpful answer, LOL!!! :lol: Some rabbits that are culled from a breeder's herd and sold as pets or woolers will outgrow their "ugly" stage and be gorgeous show-quality adults...and some FANTASTIC juniors outgrow their awesomeness and grow into some faults as adults. So yes, I would ask the breeder(s) you choose to go to about this because it may be a different answer for each one.

I personally check at four weeks for any major issues (malocclusion, eye issues, stuff like that)...then at eight weeks (overall type with leniency for age) and then again at sixteen weeks (type, coat, fine-toothed-comb exam for DQs) and if they have a fault at sixteen weeks I opt them out of my herd. However, I know that some rabbits don't come into themselves until much later, so I do risk "petting out" a potential champion. *shrug*

2) Are adult wool producers ever returned to the breeder for rehoming?

Depends on the breeder. I had to sell out of my French Angoras (no space and limited time while I'm back in college) but I will have them again (HAND SPINNING= SO MUCH FUN and I love their personalities) and I plan to do an occasional breeding. I personally will not only take back ANY rabbit I've bred at any time for ANY reason (though no refund or exchange after two weeks) but I will take in any unwanted rabbits, period. Some breeders...don't want them back, LOL. I had one FANTASTIC doe who the breeder wanted gone, and did not want her back...so when I sold out of FAngoras, I sold her to another breeder who just fell in love with both her personality and her amazing wool.

So again, that is something to ask your potential breeder! I wouldn't hold it against a breeder who says "no, I do not take them back" though, some breeders don't have the facilities to quarantine or cope with a "hot mess" which is usually what a returned/unwanted Angora is. I can't blame them for that.

3) Is a wool-producing rabbit the same as "pet" quality, or is it considered somewhat better than "pet" quality? (If so, then I should expect to pay a somewhat higher price, but not as high as for a show-quality kit; correct?)

I had French Angoras...but I also at one point had an English Angora, too. I planned to cross her with my French buck for some serious wooler kits. (I ended up selling the English to a youth for 4H instead, and apparently she now lives like a pampered queen.) A wooler is a rabbit that produces excellent wool...so they don't have to be show quality. However, IMO (and this is JUST my opinion) all show-quality Angoras have to be good woolers in order to have the right coat. Because I didn't show my Angoras, I never worried about pedigrees (only two of mine were sold to me with peds) or purity (one French was apparently a quarter English-bred).

However, different breeds have different types of wool, so watch out!!! My English was ultra-soft, like a puffy cloud...and it was too soft for me to enjoy. I've blended all the wool I saved from her with my Frenches, so it spins easier. You must choose what wool type YOU prefer, and don't let anyone tell you "this breed is better than that one," because each of us is unique and what we need/want from a wooler is unique to us!

4) I'm not fixed on the variety of Angora--yet--but unless I specifically select a variety bred within 4 or so hours of my home, I'll be dependent on having a very young rabbit shipped (I think), which is a great risk not only to its health but its very survival.

Go to rabbit shows. There might be breeders there and then you can learn from them and make connections, and when you find a breeder who has the rabbits that are right for you, go for it! I am personally a BIG fan of French Angoras, I love the wool quality...but the English are amazing, too. Ultimately, as I said, you must choose the right breed and wool type for you.

5) Should I expect my hypothetical wool-producing rabbit to be altered before I receive him/her? Or will that be my responsibility?

That will probably be up to you. If this is your first wooler I'd reccomend a buck...does can be a little odd at times. My buck was the easiest to handle, in fact he was too docile to breed, LOL!!!

6) I keep reading about "bonding" among bunnies, but I also keep seeing that Angoras "should not share" living quarters. My rabbit(s) will live in my home office, probably in an ex-pen most of the time. Is there a territorial problem such that Angoras do not bond? Would two ex-pens be better? Or does this non-sharing rule apply to rabbits living in protected outdoor quarters (i.e., cages) where there simply isn't room for two rabbits?

Again my opinion here, but...rabbits are territorial animals. Yes they can bond with another rabbit and have a "buddy" but you run the risk of one rabbit injuring or killing the other one fine day. I used to have a colony setup, I wanted my rabbits to be social. After so many issues (including a pair of littermates who had been together since birth suddenly deciding they wanted to MURDERIFY each other) I now keep all my rabbits separated except to breed and except for does with kits (obviously). Woolers should NOT be kept with other rabbits, they can chew up and destroy each other's coats, and if one over-grooms itself and the other there is an increased risk of wool block, which can be fatal.

My rabbits are happier and healthier in individual space, with one-on-one handling. Seen too many tragedies to really support them living together. HOWEVER, some people have colony setups and it works well for them, so you never know!!! But not Angoras, no.

I'm also a little rocky emotionally, as I lost my female Bernese Mtn. Dog (13 years, 4 months old) two weeks ago today.

I'm so very, truly sorry!!!!!! They are such amazing dogs. Very very sorry for your loss!!!!

I would never take an animal back once it had left my rabbitry- biosecurity risks really aren't something to be taken lightly.

This is a very valid point. As said I would never hold it against a breeder who won't take an animal back.

A girl who worked for me had a bunch of pet rabbits- she had great big hutches with attached runs- her first two rabbit did not get along- so she got a 3rd- who got along with one of the 2, but not the other......the 2 lived together. She felt the third was lonely- so she got another.....they also did not get along- by the time she was done she had 8 rabbits, 2 to a hutch/run. You'd probably be better off keeping them seperate

LOL!!! Sounds like someone was trying to live up to the unreasonable demands of the House Rabbit Society. I have one doe who hates other rabbits...HATES THEM...and I'd be a fool to try and "bond" her to anyone other than me. First time I tried to breed her she tried to kill my buck. Not cool!!!!

All rabbits are somewhat territorial, many are VERY territorial. They are happiest when alone in their own space or interacting with their bonded human.

As far as shipping rabbits, it is done regularly. Most often, it is done in conjunction with a rabbit show, and transport is set up that way. Speaking of shows, you might want to google for any upcoming shows in your area. That might be a great way to pick up a bun without going through the trouble of having one transported.

Marinea is right.

Lastly, and I hope I don't offend anyone's sensibilities with this, but altering is not the "you must do this" thing that some folks seem to think it is. I believe that if you polled all the RT members (and most of the other rabbit forum members- if they were honest) you would find that there aren't many at all who have had unaltered buns that have developed the cancers and other things that the pro-altering folks rail about.

You know, I have heard about more rabbits who've died from anesthesia during spay/neuter and a few rabbits who, when coming out of anesthesia began to struggle and broke their backs, than I have about rabbits with cancers. And this is bearing in mind probably 95% of the rabbit folk I know do NOT alter their rabbits, so...yeah, I reccommend it when I sell as a pet, but I never REQUIRE it, because the risks are so high.

Unless you have a buck who is spraying everywhere (and no, not all intact bucks spray...I currently have three bucks, two don't spray at ALL) or plan to keep bucks and does together, it isn't actually neccessary.

And to address the "what about the unwanted bunnies" side of the altering issue, I think that's more of a responsible owner thing than an altering thing. It is my belief that the vast majority of buns in shelters are the result of rabbits purchased for children that then lose interest. No breeders I have "met" through these forums have EVER sent a rabbit to a shelter.

INDEED. All the rabbits I ever see posted on the local rescue's website (remember, I won't go there for fear of bringing Pasturella home with me...seriously, could kill my whole herd!!!) are mutt-style pet-store type rabbits. No ear tattoos or whatever. I've been told there's a new rescue in town, and that they are doing "adoption days" soon...I plan to check them out just to see what has ended up in their rescue. I'll be shocked if I see ANY purebreds with tattoos. I know it happens sometimes (no matter how thoroughly we "vet" potential pet buyers, some will lie to us and then later dump the precious rabbit we sold them) but not nearly as often as one might think.

And lastly, about the housing. If you want a rabbit for fur, it should definitely live alone, separately. To share living space invites issues with urine or poo stained fur, possible over-grooming by the other rabbit, possible injuries due to fights, and other problems.

Pee staining is the bane of my existence. My one buck who sprays LOVES HIS OWN PEE and he'll spray the walls and rub his face in it, pee all over his marble cooling slab and lie on it, et cetera...and he's WHITE. Or should I say YELLOW because he loooooves pee! Trust me, you do not want pee stains on your Angora!!!

Hopefully this helps...and as I've said WELCOME to the forum!!! We are here to help, so please don't be worried we'll be upset if you ask questions. Rabbittalk is a wonderful and unique forum where we don't berate each other for things like being new to a breed or asking advice...we just all do what we can to help.

 

[PSFAngoras]

Welcome to the forum! First, let me say that in no way should a breeder find your questions offensive! Most breeders are open to listen to other ideas, even if perhaps it's not what they agree with, there are many different ways and opinions on raising rabbits, and we are used to that.

Everyone's answer for these questions are going to be different, so you will have to find what works best for you, but I can tell you what I do...

1) Age- I check the rabbits every day. Usually by 4 to 6 weeks, you are able to see body type, and other issues that occur with the physical structure of the rabbit. The coat ususally starts in my kits around 5 weeks. I will cull out anything that is not up to my standards or that may have a physical problem (malocclusion, etc.) at 8 weeks (they are used for meat). The rest of the rabbits angora kits stay on the property until 12 weeks of age. This is when my line of French Angoras usually loose their baby coat, which is a pain to deal with. It is much finer than the adult coat, and mats easily. I would rather deal with it than sell the rabbit to someone who thinks they are hard to maintain due to just this stage, and give up on the rabbit. After their first molt, they can go a week without grooming, until they molt in another three months, and then they need one or two long grooming sessions to pluck out the wool. When their juvenile coat comes in, it can undergo a lot of changes in color, density, and consistency, so I make my choices on quality then.

2) I have not taken anyone back for re-homing. I do offer that, but the rabbits will be quarantined before they are re-introduced into my stock. If they don't pass quarantine, they are culled and fed to the dog.

3) A 'wooler' is a rabbit that has a nice coat, but is not show quality. A lot of these can crop up. I sell them without a pedigree for a lower price.

4) I would suggest getting a French Angora, but I am partial to them, so that is just me. They do have a clean face and feet, combined with a good balance of guard hair and undercoat which cuts down on matting and as a result, grooming. Mine will molt their coat every three months, which means that I don't have to shear them except for once or twice in summer when it gets too hot for them.

5) Most breeders will leave it to you to alter your animal.

6) I keep my rabbits separate. You could potentially keep them housed together, but as dood said, that is dependant upon the personality of the animals in question. None of my rabbits like housed with other rabbits, so I don't. Also, I think it would be harder to keep track of some things if they were together. With angoras, constant monitoring of the food intake and output is the best way to keep track of whether or not they are getting wool block. This would be much harder if you had more than one rabbit to a cage/area.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

PSFAngoras reminded me there...not all Angoras molt out their wool, some need to be sheared...and if an Angora is a molting variety, I would not shear them unless it's a comfort/heat issue. So be sure to ask breeders before buying a rabbit if the rabbits molt or not!!! All of my French Angoras were the molting kind, it was very soothing for us both to pluck the wool...they got pampered, and it's very zen to do the plucking.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

:welcomewagon:

Welcome to RabbitTalk, DogCatMom!

I'm so sorry to hear of the loss of your dog. I lost my beloved JRT to a rattlesnake bite last year, and I miss him dearly.

You have gotten a lot of good advice here from some of our resident woolers. Angoras certainly are a breed apart and require different care and maintenance than most breeds, so it is great that you have found RT so they can help you and your future angora(s) in your journey.

A friend of mine used to raise Angoras, and was delighted to get a doe at a very good price because she had a white toenail- so the difference between show and pet quality can be very insignificant in regard to utility.

I doubt you are seeing many Angoras in rescue situations because their breeders know that they are very high maintenance so rarely place them in pet homes where the possibility of neglect is so much greater than those going to wooler or show homes. It is most likely that any animals unfit for use as a wooler or show/breeding animal are humanely culled and used for meat for human or animal consumption rather than risk a life of suffering as a matted mess.

I also highly recommend attending a show in your area to familiarize yourself with the different breeds and their fur quality. You can find show listings here:

https://www.arba.net/showsSearch.php

Betty Chu is a top breeder of English Angoras and has a very informative website that you will find very useful:

http://bettychuenglishangora.com/

Good luck in your search. Make sure to post pictures when you bring your new bunnehs home!

 

[DogCatMom]

Thank you ALL for such informative responses! I find the point re. monitoring of food vs. possibility of wool block persuasive; I will keep Angora bunny/ies separate but perhaps in adjoining "territories" in my home office. He/she/they will have companionship--mine for sure! and maybe that of another bunny--but I'll know how much goes in and how much comes out, and will be able to monitor with certainty. All three of my cats eat from the same food dishes, and this cost me a day earlier this year when I couldn't tell which cat was tossing up the hairballs and not eating (I brush them all and flea-comb them, too, but the hairballs still happened).

There is a "rabbits and exotics" vet at the practice I've taken my animals to for many years, so I have no fears about finding a rabbit-savvy vet.

I asked about altering the bunny/ies because of the possibilities (I had read about) of territorial spraying and fighting as well as the cancer statistics, esp. in females. Years of adopting cats from shelters, friends, and the street, and fostering/rescuing Berners have impressed the Must. Be. Altered. ethic into my brain. Friends who've bred their females (dogs) have had the usual list of catastrophes, too: Mama Dog died in whelp, so puppies needed a foster mom and/or needed to be bottle fed; Mama Dog didn't want the pups and rejected them (very rare in Berners--in 15 years, I've heard about this only once); Mama Dog rolled over on top of and thus suffocated one/two/more of the pups due to lack of "pig rails" in the whelping pen.... So breeding anything, even rabbits, just isn't on my radar right now. I think I'd rather get used to the rituals of bunny care, coat care (ooh, another type of coat! I can SPIN it! woo hoo!), gardening on behalf of yet another life form, and so on before I consider the possibility of baby bunnies. They just look...so tiny.

Will investigate shows; thank you for the link. I would never have figured out where to look, but now that I see the arba.net site, duh--of course! (I knew that InfoDog.com wouldn't work. :lol: )

Off to read and think some more. Thank you again!

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Thank you ALL for such informative responses!

You are most welcome!! That is what we are here for.

I find the point re. monitoring of food vs. possibility of wool block persuasive; I will keep Angora bunny/ies separate but perhaps in adjoining "territories" in my home office. He/she/they will have companionship--mine for sure! and maybe that of another bunny--but I'll know how much goes in and how much comes out, and will be able to monitor with certainty.

Maybe supervised playtime and then individual quarters for food and sleep? I could see that working if they got along...but be warned, even "bonded" bunnies can suddenly lose their tolerance and then next thing you know, there goes an ear. Or an eye. So I would watch carefully!!

I asked about altering the bunny/ies because of the possibilities (I had read about) of territorial spraying and fighting as well as the cancer statistics, esp. in females.

I hate to say this but a lot of rescues and shelters exaggerate spraying and cancer to scare people into altering their animals. Then, once the "professionals" have "educated" a pet owner, the pet owner parrots the misinformation to others...and before too long the exaggerations are "facts." :roll: Some vets get on board with the raging exaggeration, too. Can't tell you how many people on other sites have claimed ALL unaltered bucks spray...then claim I'm lying when I say two of mine, Boss and Jack, never spray. Jack is a neat-freak, and Boss is the most mellow, docile buck in history, LOL!

But they've decided that the exaggerations are "facts" so my experience on the matter doesn't register as valid.

Now, I will admit male dogs are more likely to mark the heck out of everything if unneutered, but rabbits aren't dogs! Plus many intact dogs don't urinate inappropriately, either.

As to cancers...as I said, I have seen I think ONE doe who had a tumor when processed in her uterus...but I know of a LOT of rabbits who've died or been permanently damaged by anesthesia.

Some article from the House Rabbit Society claimed that 80% of unspayed does WILL DIE OF UTERINE CANCER...I'm half tempted to poll this whole forum and ask, how many unspayed does are there? How many have died of uterine cancer??? Yes, removing the uterus or testicles of an animal prevents the possibility of cancer...but by that logic, you should also remove all their other organs too because those could develop cancer.

Ultimately the choice to spay or neuter a rabbit is something each owner must choose for themselves though, and while I would personally never do so to my rabbits I will never frown on those who do...I just wish they were doing so with correct information and not scare-tactics.

As to breedings...

Well, much CAN go wrong when breeding rabbits but not as often as you might think. And while the loss of a kit is sad, unless it's due to a problem previously known about it's not something that should prevent an otherwise auspicious pairing. Fostering is not really that big a deal for rabbits...many breeders try to breed does in pairs, so they kindle at around the same time, so if there's a problem one can foster the other's kits. I have a litter that I'm fostering right now...my Champagne doe had a health issue and my Mini Rex doe had some issues with her birth so four of her five kits didn't make it. When my Champagne kindled I had my rabbit-sitter (I was out of town) give the three Champagne kits to the Mini Rex doe, so her little lonely only kit would have littermates. Here, I must share pictures:

The big black one is a Champagne, and the tiny tort is a Mini Rex...and she's small even for her breed, lol. Check out the size difference!!! The tort kit is also almost two days older than the Champagne. Yet they all get plenty of milk from their devoted little momma!

And yes, they are extremely tiny when born, but shockingly tough for such delicate little creatures.

Having cute little baby kits is a lot of fun. I have a pair of three-week-olds who are entering the "mindbreakingly cute but absurdly naughty" phase of life...it's fun!

That said...I encourage people to breed only if they have a plan for their kits and only if they feel committed to it. If you want to wait or if you decide never to breed, that is okay too!!! I believe everyone should have the right to enjoy their rabbits in whatever way(s) best suit their needs, so long as those rabbits are happy and healthy.

 

[PSFAngoras]

None of my rabbits are altered, and actually, I find my angoras are the best about not spraying. I had a Flemish buck that would spray if he even smelt a doe, but I recently had to house my angora bucks next door to my does for a few day ( there is about an inch or two of space between my cages and really tall urine gaurds, so no risk of breeding through the cages) and I did not have one buck spray during the whole time. One of my two bucks sprays if he doesn't get attention when HE wants it, and the other who is supposed to be a more sexually aggressive buck has NEVER sprayed once in the nearly year and a half that I've had him.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

the other who is supposed to be a more sexually aggressive buck has NEVER sprayed once in the nearly year and a half that I've had him.

Jack is my buck who is most keen to breed...if I tend to a doe before I pay attention to him, he gets all kinds of excited about it, and when breeding he is very pushy with the does. I even have a silly video on my phone I took of him...he was trying to "engage" a frozen water bottle I'd put in his cage to keep him cool. :lol: Yet he never sprays...he's ultra-fastidious about grooming and likes to arrange his cage "furniture" just so, so I figure he's too much of a neat-freak to spray.

 

[skysthelimit]

Hello there

I am hesitant to say, lest the law o' Murphy fall on me that I have 12 bucks currently and not a single one sprays. I have not had a spraying buck yet

I also have three intact German Shepherd males, and though the yard smells a little musky some times, they don't spray inappropriately. A lot. They do occasionally fight, and now must be kept separate. Such is the life of intact animals.

I don't worry about neutering, which here would cost twice the value of the rabbit, and since they live separately, it's not a real problem. The oldest buck here is 6 years old, the oldest doe was 4. I've had bunnies live longer, and have heard about them live longer. 7-9 years is plenty of live span for me. None of these were altered.

Altering is a personal choice, of all the breeder friends I have, they've had intact girls live into the teens, and young dogs need surgery to remove cancers, or die young. I would not want anyone to take my internal organs out just to prevent breast or uterine/prostate cancer. Seems silly on a person, why does it make sense on any other animal?


I usually evaluate my buns at 6, 8, and 12 weeks. There are buns that will not leave here ever, buns that are selling quality, and ones I intend to keep for myself. My Angoras do not molt. Pretty much the baby coat is left alone until 4-6 mos, or if it's a show animals, not a breeder, I clip at 12 weeks, after the first show, to grow in a new show coat.

I don't recommend breeding anything to anyone that does not have a ready outlet for their animals.

I appreciate you are taking the time to research, if more people did that, there would be less animals in shelters.

 

[DogCatMom]

Checking into shows: there's an "Open" show (maybe several breeds?) at the Monterey County Fair over Labor Day weekend. There's an Angora-only show on September 14 in Napa and again on September 21 in Stockton.

Show questions: Does "Angora-only" mean English, French, Satin, and Giant Angoras? If not, what does it mean? How would I find German Angoras to heft or at least look at (big guys that they seem to be, from their photos)--since they seem to be a world unto themselves? I mean...I have a Maine Coon X cat (14 lb) and two others (11 lb and 15 lb--fat, no play drive) and Bernese Mtn Dogs (current male = 107 lb/48.5 kg); I could go either way (small, for the relief, or large, because my other animals are all large) with the rabbit(s). I just don't know whether Copper (orange & white Maine Coon X) would be happy with a rabbit larger than he is in "his" house.

Even though having Angora fiber to spin is an ultimate end, to get that Angora fiber many hours of initial study and then the actual rabbit care-taking must be performed. Happy, healthy rabbit = good fiber, at least in theory. It simply takes less time to groom smaller animals than larger ones, but errors in grooming which larger animals (grown cat, dog) wouldn't even notice can have serious consequences with smaller ones (kitten, puppy).

Of course, Mr./Ms. Angora will have no idea that he/she is helping to grow the very veggies I'm putting down as food! Compost, you know....

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Altering is a personal choice, of all the breeder friends I have, they've had intact girls live into the teens, and young dogs need surgery to remove cancers, or die young. I would not want anyone to take my internal organs out just to prevent breast or uterine/prostate cancer. Seems silly on a person, why does it make sense on any other animal?

You know I don't know why I didn't think of it earlier. My dear cat Shadow died of complications from cancer. She was spayed when she was a kitten. She died of bowel cancer that spread to her liver and lungs before it was diagnosed. Cancer can happen anywhere, literally.

And agreed on the humans-versus-animals part. Never thought of it that way but it makes sense. If uterine cancer, for example, is so prevalent as to have an 80% mortality rate, why don't they do mandatory hysterectomies of women past menopause? :|

there's an "Open" show (maybe several breeds?) at the Monterey County Fair over Labor Day weekend. There's an Angora-only show on September 14 in Napa and again on September 21 in Stockton.

If you can, I'd go to both!!!

Does "Angora-only" mean English, French, Satin, and Giant Angoras? If not, what does it mean? How would I find German Angoras to heft or at least look at (big guys that they seem to be, from their photos)--since they seem to be a world unto themselves?

Since Germans aren't an ARBA recognized breed, it may be hard to find them. From what I was told (bearing in mind I can't verify this, it's basically gossip) they are too much like the Giant Angora breed to be considered a unique breed by the ARBA. I've also seen people proclaim they are the only non-molting breed of Angora, which is categorically false. They seem to be about the same size, from what I can tell, as a Giant Angora.

But yes, Angora-only means English, French, Satin, and Giant.

 

[DogCatMom]

Reviving this thread (and thus not thread-jacking one in Introductions):

:welcomewagon:

Hi Marsha!

...

DogCatMom is looking for angora rabbits, by the way.

"The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley," wrote Robert Burns in 1785. True before then, true then, and true now.

DogCatMom emailed a show secretary (if that's the correct term in the Rabbit World) the other day re. the upcoming Angora show on the 14th. One thing led to another, one contact to another. Long story short: I will be purchasing ONE POUND :fainting: of Angora fiber on Saturday at a modest discount from the producer's 4-oz. price. I already have 1 oz. of French Angora fiber, loose; and--allegedly--1 oz. of English Angora roving (it looks like much MORE than 1 oz. to me).

This amount of fiber will keep me going for quite a while, esp. since 100% Angora yarn is impractical; Angora must be blended with sheep wool or other fibers, or the finished item will
1) be too warm to wear almost anywhere except in Antarctica or a Yukon blizzard, and
2) have no "memory" or "spring." That is, when the hat/mittens/gloves/sweater is/are removed, they won't return to their original shape; they'll just lie there, distorted from having been worn. Whereas in a wool/Angora blend, the best of both worlds is available: the lovely halo and loft of Angora, the springiness and memory of the wool.

So I'll need to spin up as much wool or perhaps twice as much wool as Angora; it depends on whether I decide that two- or three-ply yarn works better for me.

But, even if the need for fiber has been assuaged for the next many months, I still have those blackberry canes, rose prunings, dandelions, lanceate plantain, and other healthful weeds/native plants and raised veggie beds. Rose-pruning "season" is coming soon--October for the light pruning in my area, January for the major pruning; blackberry runners can be cut back any time, major pruning same time as roses. Weeds (ahem; "native plants") grow all year.

Rabbits still produce...ah...compost on a regular basis, thus "encouraging" the roses, the veggie beds, and so on. DH isn't so sure about a "non-working," non-Angora rabbit. We'll just have to see. It's interesting; I hadn't thought he cared what *kind* of rabbit took up residence. Now that I know it makes a difference, I probably need to go for size or "Berner colors" or something.... I really have no idea.

Anyone? Help?

 

[skysthelimit]

1) be too warm to wear almost anywhere except in Antarctica or a Yukon blizzard, and

You are forgetting Ohio and Lake Effect Snow, where yours truly will sport a 100% Angora scarf this winter.

I have yet to determine what I will blend the rest with, so it's in bags. Don't think the Alpaca is right, and I might be allergic to it anyway. The Cheviot is too heavy for it. Maybe some Shetland if I can ever get someone to respond to my emails. I don't like Merino, bad experience.

 

[PSFAngoras]

Not to mention CO. I wear my 100% angora scarf anytime the occasion calls for a scarf. It's a more open pattern, so it never gets too hot, and I can wrap it up more if I need it warmer. I also don't feel like its not durable enough, but hey, that's just me. If you spin it right it will hold up to nearly anything. ( except teethin puppies, lost a few projects that way...)

 

[DogCatMom]

Not to mention CO. I wear my 100% angora scarf anytime the occasion calls for a scarf. It's a more open pattern, so it never gets too hot, and I can wrap it up more if I need it warmer. I also don't feel like its not durable enough, but hey, that's just me. If you spin it right it will hold up to nearly anything. ( except teethin puppies, lost a few projects that way...)

1) Duh; the Rockies in Colorado--and the wind everywhere else--can make the Chill Factor pretty cold. Cheyenne, Wyoming, might also qualify as cold enough for Angora. We lived in both Denver and Cheyenne when I was a kid (military family).

2) "Open pattern": lace, then? Any particular lace pattern, or one that just seemed good at the time? I "speak" both knit and crochet, so a hint on what density of stitching would work when I visit the Sierra Nevada every January would be helpful (or even one repeat of the pattern...). DH and I visit Truckee for a couple of days to see what new research has developed re. the Donner Party. (His family is related to one of the surviving families of that ill-fated wagon train.)

3) "If you spin it right"--S or Z? How many twists per inch? Laceweight singles? What is "right," in your experience? This is the kind of information I was hoping to find in Spin-Off but didn't. Even Sara Lamb's recent Spin to Weave virtually ignores the existence of Angora fiber.

4) Teething puppies--or even grown dogs who are very energetic!--can destroy one's things. My 2012 rescue, who was here less than a year , chewed a quilt, tote bags, a carting harness, a blanket, a repaired tote bag, a pillow, a dog bed, and many other soft-type items. He was 8.5 y.o. when we brought him home, so it's not just puppies who like to chew. We offered this guy bones, chew toys (soft, medium, and hard), and "approved objects," but no...he wanted to select his own targets, all of which I had made or belonged to me or other dogs. Somewhere a few years ago, I read that large dogs can exert almost 100 pounds per square inch of pressure when they bite/chew on objects. Fabric doesn't stand a chance! :lol: