I’ve just gotten into the world of American chinchilla rabbits. I had to drive 6+ hours to get these rabbits and love the breed. However all of the chinchilla stock I have is pinched in really bad in the hindquarters. I have tried to find another American chinchilla buck but have had no luck. I’ve found people selling them but most of the ones I’ve seen have the same problem as mine. I have a really nice show quality nz red buck that I’m planning on crossing with my chin does. Then I plan on saving back 5 generations of bucks with line breeding. My question is what genetic color variations should I cull hard for? Also any more advice or helpful tips would be greatly appreciated.
American chinchilla NZ Red Cross
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MsTemeraire
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I guess it depends on what your Chins carry - and the Reds - but I'd expect most offspring from the first crosses to be agouti (chestnut). It's impossible to know what may be hiding; random recessives are not uncommon in any breed.
At some point if you're line breeding you may get Ermines, which are a combination of red (or orange) and the chinchilla gene. They're mostly white with dark brown eyes and sometimes a delicate veil of dark tipped hairs.
At some point if you're line breeding you may get Ermines, which are a combination of red (or orange) and the chinchilla gene. They're mostly white with dark brown eyes and sometimes a delicate veil of dark tipped hairs.
If it helps I have a 4generation pedigree on both sides. The chins are all chins, the nz red is all red except 4 generations back there was a broken Red parent.
MsTemeraire
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Broken can't be carried unseen (except under REW), but a pedigree is merely a record of what is kept back in each generation to make the next one. It doesn't record siblings, so there's no way to know if recessives are hiding there.
Thanks for the response. Is there anything I should cull extra hard for to get the color back to the chinchilla color?
The two recessives you're working with - that you know are there, anyway, there could be others - are chinchilla <c(chd)_> and non-extension <ee>.
Both chin and red are agoutis, so that's good. If you've got that many generations of purebred chins, you're most likely not to see a dilute, himi or REW pop up, though you could, and the NZ could reasonably carry dilute or REW since they're bred in white and blue. But it's getting rid of the recessive non-extension allele that makes a chestnut into a red that will be your immediate challenge.
As @MsTemeraire says, you'll likely get most or all chestnuts in the first round. (If you get something other than chestnuts, you'll have a clue about what else is lurking in the recessive gene pool!). All of the first generation kits will carry a copy of the non-extension <e>, so in the ensuing generations you'll almost certainly start to see ermines. Those are what you need to get rid of. Unfortunately, you can't tell when one is lurking in later generations, so just cull ermines and the parents that produce them (because you'll know that both parents carry it when they produce one).
The other recessive to watch out for is chocolate, which may come from the reds, as they can often be chocolate-based. But again, you most likely won't see them till the 2nd or 3rd generation.
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Red is a combination of Agouti dominant A, could be dominant B black or recessive bb chocolate (many breeders find that chocolate makes a better overall red color, as it masks the smut better), full color dominant C, dense color dominant D, and recessive non-extension ee that removes the dark color from the main body hairshaft, leaving the red tones behind.
Non-extension ee also usually removes the dark undercolor, and many red rabbits also have wideband recessive ww, which doubles the width of the red color band on the hairshaft, with the white undercolor. However, wideband on a chinchilla rabbit often leaves it much paler than normal, not good for a show rabbit.
Mating red to chinchilla you will expect a lot of agouti rabbits, as both chin and red are agouti based colors, chestnut agouti a likely outcome. The chins should be black B_, but the red may carry chocolate or be chocolate based, so you could eventually end up with chocolate agouti and chocolate chins in future generations. Red is full color and dominant, chin is the next down in dominance, chd_. Breeding back to chin should increase your chances for chins. Both are dense color (not dilute), so that should mesh well. Non-extension will be an issue, as mentioned, non-extension removes the dark color from the hair shaft, leaving only the yellowish/reddish tones. Chin removes those, leaving a pearly white rabbit with brown or marbled eyes, sometimes with dark tips to the hairs (ermine, aka frostie aka frosty). Not a showable color except for a few breeds.
For good chin color, you want to keep black-based, not chocolate-based breeders. At birth, both chins and chestnut agouti kits are black with white inner ears; chocolate agouti and chocolate chins are chocolate brown with white inner ears as newborns. By ten days of age, you should be able to see the banding on the hairshaft, chins will not have the yellowish middle band on the hair, agouti rabbits will. You want nice dark undercolor on your chins, should be a slate gray. Reds often have white undercolor, so choose kits with good undercolor as breeders.
Non-extension ee also usually removes the dark undercolor, and many red rabbits also have wideband recessive ww, which doubles the width of the red color band on the hairshaft, with the white undercolor. However, wideband on a chinchilla rabbit often leaves it much paler than normal, not good for a show rabbit.
Mating red to chinchilla you will expect a lot of agouti rabbits, as both chin and red are agouti based colors, chestnut agouti a likely outcome. The chins should be black B_, but the red may carry chocolate or be chocolate based, so you could eventually end up with chocolate agouti and chocolate chins in future generations. Red is full color and dominant, chin is the next down in dominance, chd_. Breeding back to chin should increase your chances for chins. Both are dense color (not dilute), so that should mesh well. Non-extension will be an issue, as mentioned, non-extension removes the dark color from the hair shaft, leaving only the yellowish/reddish tones. Chin removes those, leaving a pearly white rabbit with brown or marbled eyes, sometimes with dark tips to the hairs (ermine, aka frostie aka frosty). Not a showable color except for a few breeds.
For good chin color, you want to keep black-based, not chocolate-based breeders. At birth, both chins and chestnut agouti kits are black with white inner ears; chocolate agouti and chocolate chins are chocolate brown with white inner ears as newborns. By ten days of age, you should be able to see the banding on the hairshaft, chins will not have the yellowish middle band on the hair, agouti rabbits will. You want nice dark undercolor on your chins, should be a slate gray. Reds often have white undercolor, so choose kits with good undercolor as breeders.
The other tricky thing about culling in chins is that they sometimes start out with quite a bit of "rustiness." I've had chins with so much rustiness across their back that they can look like they might be chestnut for the first month or two, especially if you don't know exactly what you're looking at. This is not such a problem if you're only breeding chins, but if you start crossbreeding and getting chestnuts, you might consider culling a kit you shouldn't. So that's something to be aware of.
thank you for all the replies! I greatly appreciate it. When you guys are talking about the different gene letters, do those reference the same things as the ARBA raising better rabbits uses? I am still trying to understand the genetics. What does ermine and chestnut look like? Again thanks for the responses.
Chestnut agouti has a slate gray undercolor, yellow/fawn middle band, black tips. The black tips overlaying the fawn produces an optical illusion, the rabbit looks chestnut brown. Some rabbits tend more to the lighter side, being more golden brown; others have tiny fawn bands, making them look mostly gray. Below from left are a chestnut agouti, chocolate agouti, and self black. Note that while agouti patterned rabbits generally have white inner ears, the ears of the self on the right are the same color as the rest of the rabbit. (The chestnut on the left appears to have some white mismarks, not part of the chestnut pattern.)
Ermine can vary from pearl white with dark ticking all over the body, to almost pure white with very few dark tips. The main clue is the steel blue/brown/marbled eyes. A true blue-eyed white would have a clear blue eye, not grayish; and albino REW rabbits have those dramatic red/pink eyes, not brown.
The rabbit on the left is a Himalayan/Californian/pointed white (name depends on breed). Note the red eyes and very dark splotch on the nose. The ermine on the right has grayish-brown eyes, and only a sprinkling of color on the nose.
You can see how washed out the chin banding is on this doe, she was born black like a chin should be, but then the color grew in too light:
This can be the result of the wide-band gene interfering with the normal chin banding.
Of course, these colors may look a bit different on short-hair breeds, I only have longwool rabbits.
Ermine can vary from pearl white with dark ticking all over the body, to almost pure white with very few dark tips. The main clue is the steel blue/brown/marbled eyes. A true blue-eyed white would have a clear blue eye, not grayish; and albino REW rabbits have those dramatic red/pink eyes, not brown.
The rabbit on the left is a Himalayan/Californian/pointed white (name depends on breed). Note the red eyes and very dark splotch on the nose. The ermine on the right has grayish-brown eyes, and only a sprinkling of color on the nose.
You can see how washed out the chin banding is on this doe, she was born black like a chin should be, but then the color grew in too light:
This can be the result of the wide-band gene interfering with the normal chin banding.
Of course, these colors may look a bit different on short-hair breeds, I only have longwool rabbits.
The letters notating the different alleles on the various gene series - A,B,C,D,E - are basic scientific notation, which is used in the ARBA Guidebook pgs. 104-114, as well as most other sources discussing rabbit coat color genetics. They aren't necessarily transferable to other species, though, since other species have many different loci and alleles.
A great primer on rabbit coat color genetics is Ellyn Eddy's ABC - About Bunny Colors. It starts with basic genetic inheritance and moves into each gene series. It's getting a little dated now as new things are being learned about coat color genetics (so is the ARBA Guidebook - my copy was published in 202 so it doesn't even have a complete list of the varieties listed for the breeds anymore), but the basics remain reliable.
There are some great photographic guides on the internet to learn about what the colors look like. Angoras, Satins and Rex all appear a little different from standard coats, but Holland Lops come in lots of colors and are a good way to start since they pose standing up, so you can see the belly color better than on many other breeds (and belly color can be important in determining color/variety). Here are two good ones:
https://hickoryridgehollands.com/holland-lop-color-guide
https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors.shtml
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Thanks for the replies.
There ARE chinchilla New Zealands out there, if you're able to find them. I'd use those or chestnuts if you can find them. American Chins are so beautiful (one of my favorites I've raised over the years) but the body type in the breed can lack sometimes. When I raised AmChins (this was back, oh, pre-2015, I think) I bred in some black New Zealands. This was long before I understood color genetics but it seemed to work alright. I also bred in an American Sable because my best friend raised them, but they had some of the same type issues at the time.
Best of luck! AmChins are sweetie pies and fabulous moms.
I haven’t been able to find much in the area for chinchilla Nz. I got a beautiful red buck though. I also have a black NZ a rew Nz as well as a broken black. They are all does though. Other then my red buck. I also have a badly colored red doe. As far as the American chinchillas I love the breed. They have been some of the best mothers I’ve ever had.
A NZ black would just mean that instead of battling a recessive non-extension <e> you'll be fighting a recessive self <a>. If you wanted NZs, that means you'll get blacks and self chins, both of which are showable in NZ. But if you're aiming toward Am Chins, it won't be much help at all. The self chins might be useful in a breeding program, but frequently you can't tell the difference between self blacks and self chins until you breed them, and you'll still be ensuring that every one of their kits carries the <a> you want to eliminate.
A NZ White might be better; in my experience, NZWs tend to have the best fur quality (though I've recently seen some stunning NZ blacks). The potential color advantage would mostly be due to the fact that quite a few NZWs carry chinchilla (and also steel, which isn't helpful but at least is easy to get rid of in later generations), though you won't necessarily know that before you breed the animal into your chin lines. Years ago I discovered that many of my blue and black Satins were actually self chins when I outcrossed my "blue" Satin buck to a NZW doe, and got a litter that was 100% chinchilla. I have found, though, that sometimes NZWs that carry chinchilla produce offspring with poor ring definition and placement, so that's something to watch out for. You could find the same thing with the reds, since neither variety is actively selected for ring quality.
However.....
Many experienced and successful breeders and judges agree that, "you have to build the house before you paint it." If you have a NZR buck with excellent type and great hindquarters, I'd say use him! The hindquarters carry the most points in judging meat, and after you've processed both high-quality and lesser-quality meat rabbits, you'll really see why. My adult Satins and Californians have thighs bigger than standard Thanksgiving turkey drumsticks, and the 8-10 week-old fryers' hind legs are bigger than meat chickens'.
It has done me well to use the very best-typed rabbits in my program, regardless of their variety. It can take a few generations to get back to the color you like, and I'll admit that for a while, very often the best offspring are unshowable due to being unrecognized varieties. And you'll probably have varieties other than chinchilla cropping up for a while (or not - it's a statistical thing). But in the long run, for me, the approach has been totally worth it. It took several years, but on the show table and in the meat pens, my Satins now outcompete the NZs and Californians I used to build them.
And no matter whether they're the variety you're hoping for or not, they all taste great.
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