I’ve just gotten into the world of American chinchilla rabbits. I had to drive 6+ hours to get these rabbits and love the breed. However all of the chinchilla stock I have is pinched in really bad in the hindquarters. I have tried to find another American chinchilla buck but have had no luck. I’ve found people selling them but most of the ones I’ve seen have the same problem as mine. I have a really nice show quality nz red buck that I’m planning on crossing with my chin does. Then I plan on saving back 5 generations of bucks with line breeding. My question is what genetic color variations should I cull hard for? Also any more advice or helpful tips would be greatly appreciated.
American chinchilla NZ Red Cross
- Thread starter Phil
- Start date
Help Support Rabbit Talk Forum:
MsTemeraire
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2022
- Messages
- 299
- Reaction score
- 397
I guess it depends on what your Chins carry - and the Reds - but I'd expect most offspring from the first crosses to be agouti (chestnut). It's impossible to know what may be hiding; random recessives are not uncommon in any breed.
At some point if you're line breeding you may get Ermines, which are a combination of red (or orange) and the chinchilla gene. They're mostly white with dark brown eyes and sometimes a delicate veil of dark tipped hairs.
At some point if you're line breeding you may get Ermines, which are a combination of red (or orange) and the chinchilla gene. They're mostly white with dark brown eyes and sometimes a delicate veil of dark tipped hairs.
If it helps I have a 4generation pedigree on both sides. The chins are all chins, the nz red is all red except 4 generations back there was a broken Red parent.
MsTemeraire
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2022
- Messages
- 299
- Reaction score
- 397
Broken can't be carried unseen (except under REW), but a pedigree is merely a record of what is kept back in each generation to make the next one. It doesn't record siblings, so there's no way to know if recessives are hiding there.
Thanks for the response. Is there anything I should cull extra hard for to get the color back to the chinchilla color?
The two recessives you're working with - that you know are there, anyway, there could be others - are chinchilla <c(chd)_> and non-extension <ee>.
Both chin and res are agoutis, so that's good. If you've got that many generations of purebred chins, you're most likely not to see a dilute, himi or REW pop up, though you could, and the NZ could reasonably carry dilute or REW since they're bred in white and blue. But it's getting rid of the recessive non-extension allele that makes a chestnut into a red that will be your immediate challenge.
As @MsTemeraire says, you'll likely get most or all chestnuts in the first round. (If you get something other than chestnuts, you'll have a clue about what else is lurking in the recessive gene pool!). All of the first generation kits will carry a copy of the non-extension <e>, so in the ensuing generations you'll almost certainly start to see ermines. Those are what you need to get rid of. Unfortunately, you can't tell when one is lurking in later generations, so just cull ermines and the parents that produce them (because you'll know that both parents carry it when they produce one).
The other recessive to watch out for is chocolate, which may come from the reds, as they are often be chocolate-based. But again, you most likely won't see them till the 2nd or 3rd generation.
Red is a combination of Agouti dominant A, could be dominant B black or recessive bb chocolate (many breeders find that chocolate makes a better overall red color, as it masks the smut better), full color dominant C, dense color dominant D, and recessive non-extension ee that removes the dark color from the main body hairshaft, leaving the red tones behind.
Non-extension ee also usually removes the dark undercolor, and many red rabbits also have wideband recessive ww, which doubles the width of the red color band on the hairshaft, with the white undercolor. However, wideband on a chinchilla rabbit often leaves it much paler than normal, not good for a show rabbit.
Mating red to chinchilla you will expect a lot of agouti rabbits, as both chin and red are agouti based colors, chestnut agouti a likely outcome. The chins should be black B_, but the red may carry chocolate or be chocolate based, so you could eventually end up with chocolate agouti and chocolate chins in future generations. Red is full color and dominant, chin is the next down in dominance, chd_. Breeding back to chin should increase your chances for chins. Both are dense color (not dilute), so that should mesh well. Non-extension will be an issue, as mentioned, non-extension removes the dark color from the hair shaft, leaving only the yellowish/reddish tones. Chin removes those, leaving a pearly white rabbit with brown or marbled eyes, sometimes with dark tips to the hairs (ermine, aka frostie aka frosty). Not a showable color except for a few breeds.
For good chin color, you want to keep black-based, not chocolate-based breeders. At birth, both chins and chestnut agouti kits are black with white inner ears; chocolate agouti and chocolate chins are chocolate brown with white inner ears as newborns. By ten days of age, you should be able to see the banding on the hairshaft, chins will not have the yellowish middle band on the hair, agouti rabbits will. You want nice dark undercolor on your chins, should be a slate gray. Reds often have white undercolor, so choose kits with good undercolor as breeders.
Non-extension ee also usually removes the dark undercolor, and many red rabbits also have wideband recessive ww, which doubles the width of the red color band on the hairshaft, with the white undercolor. However, wideband on a chinchilla rabbit often leaves it much paler than normal, not good for a show rabbit.
Mating red to chinchilla you will expect a lot of agouti rabbits, as both chin and red are agouti based colors, chestnut agouti a likely outcome. The chins should be black B_, but the red may carry chocolate or be chocolate based, so you could eventually end up with chocolate agouti and chocolate chins in future generations. Red is full color and dominant, chin is the next down in dominance, chd_. Breeding back to chin should increase your chances for chins. Both are dense color (not dilute), so that should mesh well. Non-extension will be an issue, as mentioned, non-extension removes the dark color from the hair shaft, leaving only the yellowish/reddish tones. Chin removes those, leaving a pearly white rabbit with brown or marbled eyes, sometimes with dark tips to the hairs (ermine, aka frostie aka frosty). Not a showable color except for a few breeds.
For good chin color, you want to keep black-based, not chocolate-based breeders. At birth, both chins and chestnut agouti kits are black with white inner ears; chocolate agouti and chocolate chins are chocolate brown with white inner ears as newborns. By ten days of age, you should be able to see the banding on the hairshaft, chins will not have the yellowish middle band on the hair, agouti rabbits will. You want nice dark undercolor on your chins, should be a slate gray. Reds often have white undercolor, so choose kits with good undercolor as breeders.
The other tricky thing about culling in chins is that they sometimes start out with quite a bit of "rustiness." I've had chins with so much rustiness across their back that they can look like they might be chestnut for the first month or two, especially if you don't know exactly what you're looking at. This is not such a problem if you're only breeding chins, but if you start crossbreeding and getting chestnuts, you might consider culling a kit you shouldn't. So that's something to be aware of.
