Feeding Animals Grain, vs hay, produce, morality?

-just wondering what other people think about feeding meat animals grain, vs other feeds, -I had some budist friends who have influenced the way I look at things, -- They feel it is immoral, and decadent to eat beef [in China] because it takes about 5 acres to raise a cow and her calves, to get 5 or 600 lbs/ year of meat [100 lbs / acre] to sell to the wealthy, - The same 5 acres could feed a lot more people if planted in rice, [6 to 11 tons/ acre], or vegetables, [10 to 40 tons/acre].
I also have read that the high cost of grain being fed to meat animals, [and alcohol production] has not only raised the cost of meat, but the high price of corn, and grain shortage, has caused many {non US] families to starve, as they can no longer aford to buy the grain, they were living on.
I thought --that since Rabbits are a great choice for non grain feeding programs, I would ask what / or if anyone else thinks about these things?

Not all land is suitable for crops so don't jump to conclusions.

The mid west of North America has been the "beef belt" a 150 years ago for a reason - nothing could grow out there. Even today, if the wheat farmers were banned from using modern varieties or seed, irrigation and fertilizers the land would only be fit for ruminant livestock.

Most beef calves still live on the prairie with their moms and try to eek out a living along side the wildlife and dont get much supplemental feeding, except maybe in calving season in February. It is only the last quarter of their lives where grain is the main ingredient in their diet. And some livestock never seen grains. My farm is pasture based as our soil is rock mixed with heavy clay, our beef never gets grain and many if the farmers in our area grow them the same. We have an acre of garden just for the family but it is 90% aged manure, provided free by our livestock.

Do you think the rice farmer has spare cash to buy fertilizer for his 5 acres of plants? Do you think he has a swamp tractor to cultivate the rows or does he hitch up his cow for this work? NEWS FLASH - 95% of 2nd and 3rd world agriculture runs on animal power. Do you think there is a gas station on every corner if he runs out? And gas ain't cheap, how does he prevent thieves from stealing it? His cow will have a brand, or may even come to its name What happens in a dry year? His cows can walk to water, not the plants, he'll loose his entire crop and not even have milk or meat as back up plan.

And he is not wasting grain on his livestock, only the western world does that. If anything they'll get the waste seeds damaged my moisture, vermin or whatever, no nice secure silos and airtight bins for these guys. His cow will be getting fed the left over plants after the seeds have been harvested for human use.

It really gets my goat when people select out certain aspects of meat production and sensationalize it with having a clue about the whole system from start to finish.

The area I live in was first settled by sheep people, they were able to get meat from hillsides, and rough ground that was un-farmable-- now the Gov. has taken over and the BLM has more restrictions each year, and so there are only a few sheep herds left.

Even if in theory it was possible or plausible, there would be some one some where make it so it was too expensive or impossible to do. Restrictions by government/local issues, geo issues....there's just too many factors to have a "perfect" system.

I feed my rabbits from my garden, all summer, and most of the winter, but this time of year they get a 3 oz scoop [3 oz cat food can]of pellets just to make sure they get the vitamins they need, [because there are no weeds or Kale now], I also feed hay free choice, and some root vegetables[ carrots, beets, mangle,radish, J artichoke]. I was feeding cooked potato to Does with litters 3 x / week . The system is very cheep dollar wise, but takes a lot more labor. Feed costs for the year were about $200, income for the year was about $3600,[I canned quite a bit for my self] -- but the time it takes to feed, and pull 2 wheelbarrows of weeds and kale each night is about an hr /day- so-- like has already been mentioned there is no perfect system.

Weeds and garden veggies.
Well I would have to garden exclusively for the rabbit to maintain the number I have. Generally i have a full time job and other obligations.
The growing season is short, snow goes away in April if we are fortunate, and It's over the first week of October.
Small amount of land, foraging is impossible.

Basically that makes rabbit meat expensive to eat. Anyone who can raise it with less cost is very fortunate. Pellets are a way of life for me.

Weeds and garden veggies. Well I would have to garden exclusively for the rabbit to maintain the number I have. Generally i have a full time job and other obligations.
The growing season is short, snow goes away in April if we are fortunate, and It's over the first week of October.
Small amount of land, foraging is impossible.

Basically that makes rabbit meat expensive to eat. Anyone who can raise it with less cost is very fortunate. Pellets are a way of life for me.
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I do garden excusively for my rabbits, I grow kale,collard, chicory, carrot, J-artichoke, sugar beet,Mangels, Diakon radish, all with the Idea of feeding my rabbits as well as my self-- When I raised a lot of rabbits [100+ does] and had a good market, I used pellets exclusively -- but now I have a sporadic market and pellets are $20/ 50 lbs-- so I went back to the old ways, before I had pellets.

I have no market, rabbits make no profit on their own. After tilling the little scrap of land I have, I'd rather eat the veggies myself
Besides they would not grow at the right rate for what i use them for on forage and green food alone.

When anyone talks about growing food or animals, natural is always best, but things have to be feasible and economical. If everything went back to the way it was, this country could not support the population it has now. It's so easy to get up on a high horse and talk about how people should be connected to their food, , etc, etc, etc, but it's not practical for most anymore. It's just not going to go back to the time when everyone worked their own land, so a few people do the work to support the many, and that takes modern techniques, modern equipment and modern feeds.

this country could not support the population it has now--


you are right, -- and we do not suport the population we have now-- if something does happen to our supply, or the cost, of food, and materials, coming in from other countries, there will be big problems in the US.

Sure would.

I was watching one of those What if videos on Youtube, I think National Geographic. If a flu pandemic, solar eclipse, asteroid or whatever, knocked the power grid off, like that show Revolution, the population of the planet would be screwed.

People no longer have the skills it takes to do anything besides open the fridge and put it in the microwave. I know what to do and how to do it now, but living in the city, there is no room to do it, and laws that prohibit it.

Next summer I'm going to try to grow a variety of things and can for the fall/winter. But this land cannot really support what I would need for one person, and definitely cannot support my animals without outside food supplies.

any chance of getting out of the city?
if not-- maybe a "plan B" somewhere to go, away from the crowd?
I think its comming,--- I left Florida, to come back home, and get ready--

Humans require animal products. We are not herbivores. We cannot produce from plants everything we need. US rice is also greatly inferior to asian rice. Eat some good asian rice for awhile and you'll find US rice hardly edible. We sent some to japan when they had a food shortage and some preferred to nearly starve instead of eating it. In many countries tons of cheap labor is used to plant and harvest rice by hand. It would be nice to have lots of locally grown, good quality rice instead of dent corn but the logistics just don't work.

As mentioned most of the land animals are on is unsuitable for crops. It could be too hilly or poor soil. Grassfed beef is popular here. That includes hay in winter without grains. Grain fed beef is given a cheap, easy to grow dent corn or other cheap grains that are not useful to humans in the last few months before butchering. That's what people mean when saying they are finishing off a meat animal. A lot of byproducts from making human foods are put in to large livestock feed. The stuff we can't digest or tastes bad. Most good quality, human edible parts of foods are not fed to livestock.

Lol

Skysthelimit":17aaue0r said:

the population of the planet would be screwed.

Click to expand...

I think you mean the Western world would be screwed.

Most of the planets population gets along just fine without electricity. And it could be done here - the Amish do it, the pioneers did it from the 1600's to 1800's. I'm sure there'd be plenty of casualties in the early years due to a steep learning curve but it would be done.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... per_capita

Dood-- I lived off the grid for 5 years, there are a lot of things I had to learn--
I agree with you, -- there would be plenty of casualties, - even in rural areas, as a lot of homes, have no food storage, have no way to heat, or cook when the power goes off-
When I was living off the grid we had a big snow storm, it dumped a few feet of snow then the temps dropped way below 0 - after a few days one of my friends from the comunity about a mile away drove his dozer up the mountain-- to my place one evening,to clear the access road, and to see if I was alive - when he got there he saw the lights on, and smoke coming from the chimney. He told me about the mess they had in town and the power being out-and people with no heat, and no way to cook their food, -- I asked if they needed some help-- he just started laughing, and said we were worried about you, -- and you are the one who didn't even know that there was a problem.

We live on the grid, but have set ourselves up to be able to live off of it. Our small place has no room to raise cattle, so we raise chickens and rabbits. Most of our "yard" is covered in raised garden beds. We maintain our own vegetable seeds. We are pretty self-sustainable.

There is no "one answer fits all" here. Climate, terrain, population density, ability, knowledge, habit, willingness to work, finances, and so many things play a part in how each of us lives our lives. Take a look at the old-timers in an area. Talk to them. Chances are, they have learned what works best where they are. We have been here five years, we've been farming for much longer than that, and we still learn from the folks born and raised in this area.

michaels4gardens":3dftzfbe said:

any chance of getting out of the city?
if not-- maybe a "plan B" somewhere to go, away from the crowd?

Click to expand...

Doesn't look like it.

I'm 35. Currently 2 degrees and no job. Up to my ears in student debts, no credit to speak of, from the years of trying to find a job, failing and struggling to make payments on the little I had. If a miraculous decent job came about, I'd start paying off what I owe. It would be a while before I would have enough to pay for a house and land, and then, how does a single woman approaching her 40's manage livestock alone? I already feel the wear and tear of years of building, banging, hammering and lifting on my body now. I could not see how I could repeat the same process at this age to build what I need on a farm.

I would need to still work the city job to pay for the farm, then I could barely afford to pay to have things done, it would be financially and physically stressful to work the land myself. If I have a day like last week, where I am unable to lift things, it all goes downhill.

Land needs plowed, fences need building, barns need attention. How would I pay for that?

Yes, there is a lot of things to think about and plan for, Every lacale is diferent, all have strengths and weakness, [I have very heavy clay soil and a short growing season], --Right now, people on the west coast need to read the international news, [not the "puppet show" US news], and start looking for somewhere to move to,- Japan is going to loose the reactor # 3 [85% chance this year, and 100% chance in the next 2 years]-and when it does a lot of the west coast of the US will be un-inhabitable.-- [and it aint too great for the rest of us either], -radiation on the west coast has already increased by 300% in some places--
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/12/ ... coast.html
when reactor #3 goes Japan is done, they will have to move or die.

Dood":3legpts3 said:

Lol

Skysthelimit":3legpts3 said:

the population of the planet would be screwed.

Click to expand...

I think you mean the Western world would be screwed.

Most of the planets population gets along just fine without electricity. And it could be done here - the Amish do it, the pioneers did it from the 1600's to 1800's. I'm sure there'd be plenty of casualties in the early years due to a steep learning curve but it would be done.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... per_capita

Click to expand...

the population of this country would be screwed. A simple thing like how to catch, skin, clean and gut an animal is pretty much lost here. Growing a few veggies is beyond the skill a many people I know. They can't even grow house plants. There would be a lot of casualties, it takes a while to change the mentality, then gather the resources to do those jobs. I can imagine having quite a time just getting seeds. Here you only see seeds in the beginning of the growing season. Anything I don't pick up by June, I have to order online. If the lights went out in November, well, there would be no growing or gathering till April/May. A lot of time and a lot of casualties.

The amish would end up with quite a few new neighbors. And frankly, I've seen amish at walmart, so they don't live solely on what they grow anymore.

I really believe that both crops and animals are necessary and good. My organic gardening never did well until I started adding animal compost (composted chicken and rabbit poo) as fertilizer.

Chickens eat pests, kitchen scraps and greens, rabbits eat weeds and veggie by-products. the worms finish the compost quickly and feed the chickens. My 1/4 acre steep (south facing!) hillside lot produces quite a bit of food. Eggs, meat, herbs, nuts, fruits, and veggies.
It reduces my families demand on commercial agricultural systems so much more than the question of simply not buying grain-fed beef.
(I haven't bought ANY meat or eggs for years)

On a LOL note:
My neighbors put out more grains in the form of birdseed every year then I feed to the animals. Erm...I also think that more grain is eaten by their dogs and cats than they realize.

Although....all my neighbors feeding the birds probably contributes to the great quantity of doves and squirrels to hunt. ( helps explain the rich taste, too)

As to morality?

To many vegans, egg gathering is immoral.

To many people who eat commercial meats daily, hunting is immoral.

Can't do ANYTHING without someone claiming a MORAL issue over it. Just seems like control to me.

Your Buddhist friends are certainly trying to do some good for themselves and their fellow humans by not eating grain fed beef. Maybe it helps there.
I'm biased. I can't really digest any grain very well.
So simply substituting grains for meat..just doesn't work for me.

I do think the time is coming, sooner than we think.

Unless I can find a like minded group to help me, pretty much I'm going to have to give up anything I have to feed to live, and grow and hunt small game for myself. I'd be looking for a warmer climate with longer growing seasons.