Watering system PVC schedule#40 pics. Beginning to end.

[grumpy]

Great tutorial grumpy. Question off the top of my head. Does the pump help keep the water unthawed during the winter since the water is constantly moving?
The water barrels are enclosed in an insulated cabinet. There's a small heater in there that keeps the temp right at 95-100 degrees. Warm water is continually pumped through the system.
Also, does this system still work, at least for a time, if the power goes off?
Only until the ambient temps fall below freezing. Then, I'm s.o.l.!!
O, and another one. What type of nipples are those?
Standard Dewdrop valve offered by http://www.klubertanz.com

Grumpy.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

UNTHAWED water is FROZEN water

 

[mystang89]

UNTHAWED water is FROZEN water

He meant what I knew :?

 

[oliveoil]

Grumpy,

I'm switching my edstrom flexible tube system to pvc so I can heat it and NOT have to deal with frozen water bowls again next winter, but I have a few questions.

Which do you think would use less electricity, the heat cables or the recirculating pump/heater system?

Have you ever had a rabbit chew the pvc pipe? I'm guessing not, but thought I'd ask.

My husband made a recirculating heated system like yours for our chickens but it always leaked, maybe it was the wrong pressure pump. We had a coyote problem so the chickens are gone so we never fully investigated the leaking problem.

Thanks for posting!

 

[grumpy]

Grumpy,

I'm switching my edstrom flexible tube system to pvc so I can heat it and NOT have to deal with frozen water bowls again next winter, but I have a few questions.

Which do you think would use less electricity, the heat cables or the recirculating pump/heater system?
Not sure...But, those heat cables can be a real bear getting them installed. If you ever want to make changes, you can kiss the heat cables good-bye.

Have you ever had a rabbit chew the pvc pipe? I'm guessing not, but thought I'd ask.
YES! I did! For the first time in over 20 years, I had a young doe gnaw a hole in the pipe!! Shocked the #### out of me!! I've sworn up and down on here, "You don't have to worry about the rabbits gnawing!" Wrong! LOL. It was a simple fix. All I did was drain the line, cut out the bad spot with a PVC cutter and install a coupling. (NOTE)::If you have heat cables....you can't do that.

My husband made a recirculating heated system like yours for our chickens but it always leaked, maybe it was the wrong pressure pump. We had a coyote problem so the chickens are gone so we never fully investigated the leaking problem.
There's a bit of a trick to making sure it's leak proof. Just make sure you use a bit that's a tad smaller than the threads on the nipple going into the water tank. Go into a flat surface, chase the threads first, then add a small amount of silicone around the hole. Make sure you use a garden washer on the nipple as well. That makes a world of difference.
Grumpy

Thanks for posting!

 

[oliveoil]

Thanks for your help Grumpy, I won't bother with heat cables, sounds like they have a lot of potential problems and they're expensive.

I will tell my husband your troubleshooting suggestions, thanks!

 

[SuburbanHomesteader]

Most excellent post. Thank you for sharing!

 

[TerriG]

I'm wondering if we could use a bucket heater in the tank to keep the water warm and flowing?

 

[SyP]

Another great post from Grumpy, thanks man I have been wanting to install a watering system like this, you just made it a lot easier for me.

 

[grumpy]

I'm wondering if we could use a bucket heater in the tank to keep the water warm and flowing?

It would be doubtful. Those bucket heaters have a built-in thermostat that comes on at about 35 degrees. The water wouldn't be warm enough to survive a long trip through the pipes with sub-freezing temps.

Here's a pic of my water cabinet before I lined it with rigid styrofoam. All of the doors are overlapped onto the frame to reduce heat loss. I made some turn-buttons to keep the door panels tight to the frame. The small heater on the lower left keeps the temps inside the cabinet between 95-105 degrees. When the rabbits get a drink, the water's very warm.

Grumpy.

 

[TerriG]

The bucket heaters I was looking at are one extreme or another. Some are only de-icers, some heat up to boiling. There's got to be something in the middle?!?

The other issue is that we are running the rabbitry off of a heavy gauge extension cord. Right now I have a shop light and 2 brooder/heat lamps running on it. Most of the heaters are 1000 or 1500 watts. That is whether I do a space heater or a bucket/tank heater. I don't feel comfortable running that many watts through an extension cord.

My dh and fil are both in the hvac and appliance repair business. I am picking their brains too. One thing we came up with was to use a swamp cooler pump and float. We are still in the "figuring it out" stage, and this thread is *so* helpful.

 

[grumpy]

The bucket heaters I was looking at are one extreme or another. Some are only de-icers, some heat up to boiling. There's got to be something in the middle?!?
There is!! It's a thermostatic switch. Mounted in a standard sized receptacle box, you can adjust it up or down according to the temp you want. It's got a turn-button that you adjust it with.

The other issue is that we are running the rabbitry off of a heavy gauge extension cord. Right now I have a shop light and 2 brooder/heat lamps running on it. Most of the heaters are 1000 or 1500 watts. That is whether I do a space heater or a bucket/tank heater. I don't feel comfortable running that many watts through an extension cord.
Depending on how long of a feed is required, you'll lose a lot of amps in an extension cord. It can become overheated and give you problems. A 10/2 w/ground exterior electric cable would do the job. You can even bury it an inch or two under the ground.

My dh and fil are both in the hvac and appliance repair business. I am picking their brains too. One thing we came up with was to use a swamp cooler pump and float. We are still in the "figuring it out" stage, and this thread is *so* helpful.
Glad to furnish the info.

Grumpy.

 

[Harerazer]

Thanks for the great post. I do have a few questions, first with this background. Last fall we purchased the Freeze-X system for our automatic water system in our unheated barn. It worked great for awhile. A few months later, we thought the water looked a little cloudy but assumed it was air bubbles from the agitation in the water. Later we realized the water had an oily feel to it and we stopped using the system. The "Little Giant" pond pump was leaking oil. This may have been caused by the system running dry at one point, due to some leaking brass nipples. We replaced these nipples with stainless steel nipples that seem to work better. I don't like my rabbits drinking contaminated water as we do intend to harvest them and what they eat and drink becomes what we eat. In the "Little Giant" manual it does indicate that the oil is "non-toxic"; however, it notes that if it leaks it should be removed so it doesn't harm the fish.

This event caused me to begin trying to find a pump that was "drinking water" or "potable" water safe. I have found it very difficult to find a pump that will state that it is drinking water safe. I assume this might be due to the possibility of algae forming the lines or impellers of an open water system; however, I don't know this for sure. I would like to know that whatever pump I am using, is drinking water safe (other than the possibility of algae). It would be nice to know that the components at least reach the same standards as the HDPE pipe and there isn't a possibility of oil getting in the water system.

Do you or anyone know if the Pondmaster pumps or any other pond pumps are safe for drinking water?

P.S. we have ordered the inline heat wires instead of the pump system for this year but I don't see that the inline heat wires note they are potable water safe either. I also like the idea of the recirculating system better.

 

[bobqdevon]

I use a submersible aquarium heater in my bucket.

Harerazer, check out Tractor Supply. They have pond pumps that are magnet driven, no oil in them. Those are the ones I use for my systems. Also, put a tablespoon per gallon of apple cider vinegar in your water. It will keep the nasties away, plus benefit the rabbits.

 

[grumpy]

As for heating, I use a 'heat-cabinet' that holds my two water barrels.
I've since lined the inside with rigid Styrofoam for better heat retention.
I use a small 'parlor-heater' to keep the interior near 100 degrees
in freezing weather. This has worked at temps 12 degrees below zero.

These are the pumps I use and have used for years.
They are magnetic driven with no oil to escape into your water system.
They are safe and Pondmaster makes them. I run them 24/7, 365 days a year.
Contrary to what you will hear, I've never had issues with 'algae' of any kind.
I like the fact that the water is circulating in the pipes at all times.
These pumps are meant to run continually for years at a time.
I "DO" keep a spare on hand......just in case.
http://www.relaxingdecor.com/Pondmaster ... _1244.html

I'm sorry to say, those 'heat-wires' are a pain to use and you cannot make
any additions, nor reductions, to your rabbitry once they are in place.
If it freezes due to power failure, you may as well trash them.
It's nearly, "if not" impossible to make any repairs to your system when you use them.

 

[Melissa]

Thank you so much for this wonderful thread! So helpful!

 

[Harerazer]

Thanks for the great ideas. I implemented the frost free system with a little different twist. I used a 35 gallon tank from Tractor Supply that already had a threaded female end through the tank. I then kept the pump outside of the tank. The cord running inside the tank is for the tank heater. I included the pictures in case anyone is interested. So far it is working great.

 

[grumpy]

Very nice set-up Harerazer.

This is a new installation, is it not? It's easy to see that you've put
in a great amount of time, effort, and money into your water system.

Please!!...Do not take what I'm about to say, the wrong way.
I truly appreciate the amount of hard work you've put into
your watering system and the amount of pride you must surely have.

After looking at your set-up, the next thing I did was look at your location: Kansas.
Which is just as bad, if not worse than Missouri, for its extreme weather during the winter.

The next thing I looked at was your water-heater. It's a submersible "stock-tank" heater, isn't it?
I believe most of those have an internal thermostatic control that kicks-on at 35 or 40 degrees. Right?

From what I can see, it looks like you've got between 60 to 75 feet of water line ran for your system.
You've got two rows of cages back-to-back with the water line running between them. Right?
I didn't see any "drain-valves" at the ends of the runs. These are handy to have at times.

Here's what I fear will happen when the first "REALLY" cold night comes along.
Remember, I've only seen the pics and that's all I've got to go on.


1.) Your building is un-insulated. It's gonna get cold....quick!

2.) Depending upon the brand of water heater you have, it won't
activate until the water temps fall below a certain level.
Probably around 35 degrees.

3.) Then, that water has to travel through the entire system "before" it
re-enters the tank, which is only a few degrees above freezing.
The question you need to ask yourself is: "Will it make it without freezing somewhere out in the line??"

4.) You "could" wrap those elevated lines with heat tape. That would help a bunch.
Plus, you can insulate all exposed pipes, (that are out of the rabbit's reach) with foam tubing.

5.) "IF" that water freezes before it gets back to the tank, you run a strong possibility
of the pump locking up and over-heating. BTW: That's a nice pump! Ain't those couplings handy to use!!

6.) WORST CASE SCENARIO: The lines freeze.....HARD!!
Schedule 40 PVC, when frozen with water, will shatter like glass.
Usually, all you can save are the water nipples. The rest is trashed.

Now...with the lines ran between the cages..."HOW" do you repair them?
It just gets "worser and worser"...I know....I've been there.
You may reach a point, where you throw up your hands in disgust, adding a few expletive delete's.
Again....I've been there.

Last night...the bottom fell out!! It's eleven-degrees here right now.
Your temps may even be lower. I truly hope I'm totally wrong.
Please...let me know if I am.

Grumpy.

 

[Ctchinman]

I used to have a 250 gal saltwater fish tank that I installed 2 drop in heaters that where capable of heating and maintaining that volume of water to 72 degrees. If I used an appropriately sized heater in a 5 gallon bucket and set it to 80 degrees do you suppose it could work? I only have around 20 feet of piping

 

[bobqdevon]

I use an aquarium heater in my system, however my rabbits are in a heated garage, and it's there as a "backup" in case the heater malfunctions and temperature drops. My system consists of flexible tubing instead of PVC, but heated water is heated water no matter what the pipes used to carry it. I haven't seen the temp fall below 40 in my garage this winter so far.