trying to understand protein in rabbit diet

[Rainey]

I can see the appeal of having a stated protein level on a bag of pellets (although I wonder about the accuracy and if the % protein remains stable over time or is consistent between batches etc) But I'm feeding a natural diet and am trying to understand how to balance that sort of diet through the seasons.
I grow wheat fodder to feed in winter and have read that the fodder has higher % protein than the grain but have seen very different amounts given and different opinions on at what point in the growth of the fodder protein is highest.
I feed lots of fresh forage spring through early fall. I've read that the amount of protein varies depending on soil fertility and changes over the growing season--that is highest when the plant is growing fastest.
When I was first on RT I read posts by BCBelgians stating that hay or grass is the basic feed and that rabbits by producing and consuming cecotropes can get the protein they need just from these feeds. And I've see this in other places--that grass or grass hay is the basic and necessary food for rabbits.
I don't feed alfalfa which seems to be the main way of meeting protein requirements both in pellets and for those choosing natural feed. I read that various plants provide "equal protein to alfalfa" but don't know whether that is true. I feed willow--fresh when available and dried in winter--because that is cited as a good protein source. But I also see warnings of the danger of feeding too much willow.

How do others figure out this protein question? Which of the things I've read about protein seem credible to you? Is protein the deciding factor in diet for growth rate?

 

[Dood]

Protein is definitely one of the limiting factors in herbivorous diets but they can certainly survive and be productive on less, just not meet their full genetic potential - but if the food is free does it really matter if they take a bit more time to grow or are not as meaty as ones fed 18% protein ? :mrgreen:

I know my rabbits dietary protein is lower than recommended but they cope and I've managed to selectively breed a bloodline that doesn't seem to require the 18% the text books recommend :shrug:

In the winter I notice my kits may not grow as fast and the does may need more time to recover from a litter but this is true in most livestock systems and why animals give birth in the spring and summer when the environment is more ideal and resources are plentiful

When selecting forage I try and pick at least half as higher protein plants like trefoil, clover, vetch, etc... and also schedule more litters when these plants are plentiful

 

[Zass]

I'm not very well educated on this subject, so please forgive (and correct!) me if I get anything wrong here, but..
From my understanding, protein isn't just protein...

I was just reading a really interesting article about feeding livestock lower protein diets with amino acid supplementation in an attempt to to optimize digestion. (and reduce emissions.)

What it amounted to, was that they really only need so much of any specific type, so simply feeding a higher protein diet in an attempt to fill in the gaps was kind of wasteful.

It reminded me that my best growth always seems to occur when supplementing the herd with pumpkin seeds, which are known to to have a very complete amino acid profile.
I think...Amino acid balance seems to be the most likely explanation as to why some people's mutts on 16% can outperform purebred NZ's on 18%.

I don't think that wild rabbits eat only grass, and I don't think that domestic meat rabbits have systems that are even similar to a wild rabbit's.
Our meat kits are often larger than full grown adult cottontails by 8 weeks.
I do know someone who attempted to feed a litter on just grass hay. He said they died of starvation, with full stomachs.

 

[alforddm]

I think...Amino acid balance seems to be the most likely explanation as to why some people's mutts on 16% can outperform purebred NZ's on 18%.

:yeahthat:

This, IMO, is also why forage fed rabbits tend to grow slower. Most forage items are deficient in the Sulphur Amino Acids, which is one of the limiting factors in rabbit growth. This can be offset with oats, sunflower seeds, pumpkin/squash seeds, and even watermelon seeds.

I'm trying to find a few studies I had read but evidently I didn't bookmark them. Here's one but there are more.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S15 ... ci_arttext

Here one of the ones
http://journals.cambridge.org/download. ... f617ba24df

 

[Rainey]

I get frustrated trying to take quotes from several different posts to reply to them, but I really do appreciate your participation in this thread.
Just want to be clear that I don't and haven't attempted to feed my rabbits on just grass or grass hay. I feed some combination of hay, fodder, oats, willow, roots, all sorts of forage. What makes me wonder about feed is that all sorts of diets--pellets at different protein ratings and all different natural feed diets sometimes seem to be successful and sometimes not.
And ever since I started my day-old chicks last year without chick starter (which pretty much everything I read advised against) and they started laying earlier than previous batch that did get the commercial feed I've wondered more about the conventional wisdom on livestock feed. I hear people say that figuring out what to feed is "reinventing the wheel" but it seems that the wheel we have is far from perfect and not always the most sustainable way to produce food.
So while I have a way of feeding that is "good enough" I'm hoping I can improve on it as well as breeding rabbits that thrive on it. Thanks for helping me toward that goal.

 

[Zass]

I'm sorry Rainy, I wasn't trying to accuse you of only feeding grass hay.
I was just sharing what (little) I know on the subject, mainly for others that may read the comments about grass being enough.

I love reading your threads about natural feeding, especially because your buns seem to get a great variety of foods. I can't help but be a bit envious of the variety available to you and I think you must have really happy rabbits.

 

[Rainey]

I'm sorry Rainy, I wasn't trying to accuse you of only feeding grass hay.
I was just sharing what (little) I know on the subject, mainly for others that may read the comments about grass being enough.

Oh, Zass, I didn't think you were accusing me of anything. I was just thinking about how many new folks I'm seeing on RT that might not have read old threads and might think I was advocating an all grass diet. I remember when I first started lurking here that there was so much information and so many people and it took a while to be able to keep them straight in my head. Because so much isn't right or wrong--just more or less likely to move you toward your goals, which may be different than someone else's.

 

[the reluctant farmer]

All, thanks so much for this thread. I've wondered about protein levels and have worried, since I feed an all gathered & scrap forage diet. Didn't want you to think I was giving a "gold star" for everyone who participated because of all the "thanks" I hit, but this was a really useful thread to me and helped me think about my feed plan in a different way. Great question, and great answers!

 

[Rainey]

All, thanks so much for this thread. I've wondered about protein levels and have worried, since I feed an all gathered & scrap forage diet. Didn't want you to think I was giving a "gold star" for everyone who participated because of all the "thanks" I hit, but this was a really useful thread to me and helped me think about my feed plan in a different way. Great question, and great answers!

Uh oh, reluctantfarmer, you want to be careful about encouraging me to ask questions. There are so many things to figure out and the more I learn the more I wonder. Some people in my life have found it pretty annoying. But I'm glad you found food for thought. You're so much farther south than I am--lots of what you find to feed must be different. And can you gather fresh forage year round? Hope you'll join in here with your experience.
I was surprised last growing season that the early litters, born when everything was really green and growing fast grew a little slower than the ones that went to freezer camp in late November and late December when they were getting hay and roots, some grain and dried willow, and in December wheat fodder. I don't understand why the roots (mostly carrots and potatoes) help so much since I know they aren't very high in protein.

 

[Miss M]

TRF, you can also rate the thread itself, near the bottom right, or above the first post on the page.

 

[the reluctant farmer]

Uh oh, reluctantfarmer, you want to be careful about encouraging me to ask questions. There are so many things to figure out and the more I learn the more I wonder.

Nope, I'm going to be a big-time enabler. You tend to ask the questions I'm wondering about myself.

But I'm glad you found food for thought. You're so much farther south than I am--lots of what you find to feed must be different. And can you gather fresh forage year round?

A lot of the weeds seem to be common throughout the U.S.; I'll post about southern-specific ones in spring when they come out, and I remember which ones they are. :- ) I generally can find fresh forage about 9-10 out of 12 months, though in the winter it's going to take a lot more elbow grease to find. (yes, I know, whine, whine, while many parts of the country wish it was warm enough to find a foragable). Normally, the end of December and January are our coldest months. But I am still finding foragable weeds right now: dandelion greens, plantain (Plantago major), mallow (malva neglecta), wild strawberry (potentilla indica) goosegrass/cleavers/bedstraw (Galium aparine) coming up again and chickweed (stellaria media) by the armloads. Because December was MUCH warmer than usual (70's!! We broke a record for warmest December on record) the roses at the school I forage from have held on to their leaves but also have rose hips. Trees perked up and looked like they were considering coming back in (the foolish cherry half-burst into bloom so no cherries this year; the blue berries looked like they were seriously considering it, but decided to see what everybody else did and wisely lagged, so now they have plump buds tucked inside, waiting for weather to warm again.) Many of the forage plants I gather in winter are familiar to you: willow, the plants listed above when it isn't frozen, pear branches (including bradford pears-Pyrus calleryana-that fast-growing piece of trash so common in suburban areas.) I also give river birch leaves & twigs (betula nigra); it isn't the bun's favorite, but they will nibble on it & it had fresh green leaves still available last week. We have plentiful magnolia trees around here and I saw that they are supposedly edible by buns, but mine have always been very "meh" about them, so I don't even bother any more. They know something I don't know and I follow their lead on what they want, offering up as much variety as is available. I've been supplementing with sweet potatoes, bananas simply because the local store will do an extremely deep discount on very ripe ones & the extra fruit doesn't seem to be an issue for my buns in cool weather, cabbage (I have a fall crop in a garden bed--it will slow down in growing as the temps go to freezing this week, but will kick back in gear next month, as our spring planting temps start to come back) and brocolli plants. My very unscientific method is to try to create a bunny food pyramid of three categories that are offered each day: 1 mixed green forage/twigs, 2) something more substantial--the "protein" group: (cabbage, sweet potatoes, jerusalem artichoke if I'm lucky enough to have them, squash, sometimes baked or boiled potatoes or wheat/grains, esp. if the weather is cold), and then 3. something else (extra calories that would otherwise be thrown out or composted) (a piece of ripe banana, kitchen scraps including fruit & veg peels, leftover bread crusts, bunny-friendly scraps from my kids' lunches like fruit cores, p b & j scraps, leftover veggies, stems leaves and herb bits from cooking.) Not scientific or exact, but it seems to be working.

I don't understand why the roots (mostly carrots an.
d potatoes) help so much since I know they aren't very high in protein.

I'm not sure either, but they seem to work. When I started out about 4? years ago, I was diligent about pellets & hay. As I began to experiment, I'm finding some things seem to work that don't really make sense to me--but I don't know if I'm just lucky, have an unusual herd of mutts who are determined to survive in spite of me, or their diet has more balance to it than I'm aware. I hesitate to give advice normally or recommend trying this because I'm really not sure if it would be healthy for most meat buns.

 

[Rainey]

My very unscientific method is to try to create a bunny food pyramid of three categories that are offered each day: 1 mixed green forage/twigs, 2) something more substantial--the "protein" group: (cabbage, sweet potatoes, jerusalem artichoke if I'm lucky enough to have them, squash, sometimes baked or boiled potatoes or wheat/grains, esp. if the weather is cold), and then 3. something else (extra calories that would otherwise be thrown out or composted) (a piece of ripe banana, kitchen scraps including fruit & veg peels, leftover bread crusts, bunny-friendly scraps from my kids' lunches like fruit cores, p b & j scraps, leftover veggies, stems leaves and herb bits from cooking.) Not scientific or exact, but it seems to be working.

This is what I mean about being confused. I would have thought that the greens you list in category 1 would have more protein than the potatoes, squash, etc. in 2. Do you feed sweet potato vine or rooots--or both? And same for jerusalem artichoke--tops or roots? And when you say a pyramid are you feeding most from category 1 and least from 3?

I hesitate to give advice normally or recommend trying this because I'm really not sure if it would be healthy for most meat buns.

What I find most helpful is being told what someone else is actually doing or has done. It may not work in my circumstances or with my rabbits, but it gives me some ideas. I don't know how many times I've said about rabbits or anything practical I'm doing, "Well the book said _____ but I guess rabbits (or whatever else) don't read the books" Actual experience is so much more surprising and interesting than all the theories.

 

[the reluctant farmer]

The greens full well might have more protein. I was reminded of that right after I wrote this, when I picked up a wild plant ID book I hadn't looked at in a while and the author discussed that in the intro. So the buns are probably getting much more protein than I thought because they're eating wild foragables. It probably would be more fair to think of my first group as long-stem fiber (sometimes). The third part is something that has variable amounts, depending on what I have to add to the plate that night. The "bunny pyramid" was my comparison to what used to be the old school food pyramid for people--but coincentally, the amounts of each category do tend to follow in order listed: most greens (they're replacing hay for my buns most of the time) second the solid veg/proteins, and then add-ons of others. (In fall when I'm processing large amounts of foods-apples for sauce, tomatoes, whatever) these amounts will go up higher, with me refrigerating extra amounts for the next meal.

I like your quote, about rabbits not reading books. Good way to put it.

 

[Zass]

I feed every part of a sweet potatoes, leaves, vines and tubers.

That was one of the few plants even my most sensitive rabbits could handle.

Rainey, root vegetables are high in carbohydrate calories, which are largely overlooked when discussing rabbit feeding.

I have noticed that carbohydrates are often large component of pellets, and a very large component of calf manna, which is often given as a supplement.

Just a guess, but perhaps our rabbits really need some amount of those kinds of calories too, and growth can stall on a very low carb diet?

 

[the reluctant farmer]

Right--I feed all parts of the seet potato. When they're growing in summer I snip leaves & vines to feed fresh. When I'm ready to harvest in fall I start cutting back whole vines and letting the buns feast for a week. They could be dried for later use. It is so humid here and we had.so much rain that I didn't dry any because I was fairly sure it would mold before I could use it. But I have coiled up vines and stored them in my fridge for future feeding, and I've also put the cut ends in a jar of water and kept them alive until I was ready to feed them. Roots get cured and are fed throughout the winter months. Buns will eat them gladly any time of year but tend to pudge up too much if they're fed regularly in summer. I don't usually feed vines and roots together at the same feeding because I like them to have a variety. If my soil nutrients are low and I'm feeding one type of plant, there's a better chance the buns won't get a full range of nutrition. Hope that makes sense, and sorry I forgot to answer earlier!

 

[alforddm]

A great recourse for rabbit feeding (or any feeding) is http://www.feedipedia.org/

 

[Rainey]

Dood wrote

When selecting forage I try and pick at least half as higher protein plants like trefoil, clover, vetch, etc... and also schedule more litters when these plants are plentiful

Can you have too much protein? When a large part of the feed is those green high protein plants, do you also feed something that has less protein but more calories?

alforddm wrote

This, IMO, is also why forage fed rabbits tend to grow slower. Most forage items are deficient in the Sulphur Amino Acids, which is one of the limiting factors in rabbit growth. This can be offset with oats, sunflower seeds, pumpkin/squash seeds, and even watermelon seeds.

I'm trying to find a few studies I had read but evidently I didn't bookmark them. Here's one but there are more.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S15 ... ci_arttext

Here one of the ones
http://journals.cambridge.org/download. ... f617ba24df

Thanks for listing some things that have otherwise missing amino acids. Oats and BOSS are things I feed as needed with forage and hay but I wouldn't have known that they were better than wheat, which is the other grain I feed or grow into fodder. Tried looking at the articles but they were over my head

Zass wrote

Just a guess, but perhaps our rabbits really need some amount of those kinds of calories too, and growth can stall on a very low carb diet?

That's what I've wondered about--getting the right balance of protein and carbs. Most of the questions asked about feed seem to be about protein, but on a green forage diet, perhaps there'd be plenty of protein but not enough calories. Spring is when that can happen for me--when the root cellar is empty and all the new green stuff is growing fast.

the reluctant farmer wrote

Right--I feed all parts of the seet potato. When they're growing in summer I snip leaves & vines to feed fresh. Roots get cured and are fed throughout the winter months. Buns will eat them gladly any time of year but tend to pudge up too much if they're fed regularly in summer.

I don't think I have a long enough growing season for sweet potatoes I tried buying some and sprouting one suspended in a jar with water last winter but it didn't work. But it sounds like your rabbits get all the calories they need when you feed fresh green stuff in summer--that roots get them too fat. I need to look again at the mix of stuff you feed. So many variables make it hard to figure out optimal feed :?

 

[the reluctant farmer]

It doesn't help that most of us feeding this way don't keep careful records, does it? I started out with the intent of scientifically writing it all down--then found myself winging it more & more, esp. on the nights where I was tired and couldn't recall the name of a plant I'd just gathered. I'd intend to write it down later, but you know what happened...
I was worried last winter that they weren't getting enough calories. In 20 degree or colder weather I gave them BOSS and grain. (My cages are outside. I'd wrap them against the wind and of course they have a roof, but it was cold & I was afraid they'd burn too many calories in order to stay warm.) I was very surprised when I butchered in spring that a few of them had developed fat deposits! Small ones, but I didn't expect it, especially after winter. I'm really starting to wonder if we really have a good grip on protein/carb needs for buns: like in people, it probably changes a lot depending on the time of year, activity level, hormone changes, etc. So I'm wondering if just keeping a hand's on/eye on/ relationship with the buns is just fine for those of us raising small amounts of rabbits. (Not practical for large-scale folks though..) I now go by their appearance, how perky they look, and how their backs feel.

I don't know if you remember the post, but someone had put a link that discussed cabbage being an excellent feed for buns that are used to forage. (There was some debate about whether it would be too gassy for buns who didn't eat many greens.) I'll look for it again later for you. That would be a good winter feed potentially, too for your climate. Sunflower plants seemed to be very satisfying for the buns. If you can sprout some like you intend to, that would be good. But from your posts, you sound like you are doing a great job. Do the buns look ok?

 

[Dood]

The "high" protein plants are still only between 15% and 25% depending on species and season and the other half of the forage are plants under 15% so I'm not worried about too much

The rabbits also self regulate better and I can see what they focus on or avoid and offer more or less of those species next time

I still offer grains in the summer and again, watch to see what they leave in the bowl to guage their needs and they have free choice of grass hay available in all seasons

 

[the reluctant farmer]

Dood, do you have a set feeding plan, or do you watch & adapt as you go along?