Ok lets open the Cliven Bundy can of worms

[Ramjet]

While it is very disproportionate, and the legality of it definitely needs to be addressed, I'm glad of one side effect of the government holding so much land on my side of the USA. If it was private, it would quickly be filled with gaudy houses built by rich Californians buying cheap land and building McMansions on it that they only use once a year because they are afraid of snow. This is what happened to where I grew up, miles and miles of beautiful views, sagebrush, and cattle. Now there is a cluster of ugly, cheap, poorly maintained "summer mansions" on every hill top (and they'd all like to tap into your well and your phone and power lines, free of charge, please, thanks).

Or some corporation would cut down every tree and strip mine the land for every ounce of whatever natural resource it held and damn anyone who gets in the way of profit & progress. (remember the Native American's who once owned / controlled that land - most of which were slaughtered)

There has to be more to this Bundy situation than meets the eye.

If I had to hazard a guess , it would be uranium as much of the supply in the US is located in Nevada. Gold would be next on the list.

 

[Sagebrush]

Interesting fact: There is more Silver then there is Gold in Nevada........

 

[Ramjet]

Interesting fact: There is more Silver then there is Gold in Nevada........

Whether its silver or gold makes no difference.

Our government has a long track record of playing favorites , corruption & screwing the people on land that they desire for whatever reason , profit or progress.

Just look back to the period of railroad expansion .... and the carpetbaggers post revolutionary war.


The one thing we have to realize is that men are corrupt , and government is men .... The only thing those men are bound by is the US Constitution and its the job of we the people to make sure they remain within its confines. I don't believe we have done a very good job of that in the recent past. Rather , we've allowed political machines (be that D or R) to run roughshod over our land , wealth , freedom & liberty.

Our government does what it wants , when it wants and to whom it wants almost without consequence.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I'm glad of one side effect of the government holding so much land on my side of the USA. If it was private...

Or some corporation would cut down every tree and strip mine the land for every ounce of whatever natural resource it held

The land would still be held by the government- of the state itself. It wouldn't automatically become "private" land. So the choice of how to utilize the land would be up to the citizens of that state.

The point is that the land should be the property of the state, not of the Federal Government.

 

[Zass]

Here the govt owns the woods.(I live right on the only red spot in PA)
They kicked the last of the natives out in the 70's, built a dam, and have since filled the "national forest" with gas and oil rigs, messy logging roads, and unlined frack ponds.
We the people are just starting to realize that whole national forest is just one big resource mine that the govt wanted the rights to.

But...well, it's at least some amount of forest habitat that might not exist otherwise? maybe?

 

[Sagebrush]

All things considered it we the People can not wrest control of our country away from the Government then we the people are going to keep suffering because of the government. A very sad truth but there none the less.

 

[Ramjet]

I'm glad of one side effect of the government holding so much land on my side of the USA. If it was private...

Or some corporation would cut down every tree and strip mine the land for every ounce of whatever natural resource it held

The land would still be held by the government- of the state itself. It wouldn't automatically become "private" land. So the choice of how to utilize the land would be up to the citizens of that state.

The point is that the land should be the property of the state, not of the Federal Government.

Well , until the local politicians got in on the power & money grab anyway ....


I probably didn't explain my thought very well ...

It was that just because its the gubmint doing it , doesn't make it right. Question everything. Don't just take their word for it.

 

[RR MiniSatins]

Interesting fact: There is more Silver then there is Gold in Nevada........

I agree with everything Miss M said, it certainly helps to do your homework on such a story. Also I find it difficult for people who don't live in the west to totally understand what is involved in this type of thing. It takes a lot of reading and research as there are always two sides to every story. Also you might want to google Thorium. Nevada has one of the highest concentrations of this in the US.

 

[Miss M]

Yes, the Thorium thing is very interesting. I ran into that recently.

 

[ramblingrabbit]

According to an article I read, Bundy himself said at one point that it wasn't as much about the grazing rights as it was about a refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of the federal government. That kind of changes things, doesn't it?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

According to an article I read, Bundy himself said at one point that it wasn't as much about the grazing rights as it was about a refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of the federal government.

I haven't read the article you mention, and of course can't speak for Bundy... but I wonder if he meant (or plainly stated, if his words were taken out of context) that he doesn't recognize the legitimacy of the actions taken by the federal government which has amassed far more power through the formation of bureaucratic agencies than our founders ever intended.

I know that I do.

 

[ckcs]

[*] Members of the BLM did the following, when confronted by Bundy family members and supporters who were unarmed, save for cell cameras: lifted and body-slammed Bundy's sister, an elderly cancer survivor; released a dog on Bundy's son, who, when he tried to kick the dog away, was tazed twice (he had pointed... I guess that was evil or something); beat up and arrested another Bundy family member, confiscating his IPad which contained video of the attack, confiscated other items from his car, transported him to town and held him there before releasing him into the street.

I'd like to mention that Bundy's son and supporters where escalating things. There was a lot of yelling and cursing at agents. While the dog did lunge at Bundy's son it was never released. This only occurred after Bundy was ordered to move back well over a dozen times. The agents were greatly outnumbered. I'm actually shocked they allowed Bundy to keep yelling and getting in the agents face. They showed a lot of restraint, much more than a typical officer would have. I have formed my opinion from watching the video several times on youtube. The video not the BS still shot commentary that is being circulated. <br /><br /> __________ Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:56 pm __________ <br /><br />

According to an article I read, Bundy himself said at one point that it wasn't as much about the grazing rights as it was about a refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of the federal government. That kind of changes things, doesn't it?

He acknowledged the legitimacy until 1993-1994 when he stopped paying grazing fees. I think he was just pissed that the BLM limited the number of animal units to 150. He never challenged the legitimacy before that. He lost in court and was told in court documents that he had 45 days to remove his cattle and is not then the feds were entitled to seize them. He fed his cattle dirt cheap until 1993-94 then for 20 years he fed them for free. Now it's time to pay the piper.

 

[michaels4gardens]

a fedral judge just suported Bundy, and said the attack on him {all of it, not just the terrorist attack on him and family] was wrong. -and the media blitz by the Federal "ministry of mis-information " -is also inacurate, and terribly slanted toward "the Government story line"

__________ Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:36 am __________

According to an article I read, Bundy himself said at one point that it wasn't as much about the grazing rights as it was about a refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of the federal government.

I haven't read the article you mention, and of course can't speak for Bundy... but I wonder if he meant (or plainly stated, if his words were taken out of context) that he doesn't recognize the legitimacy of the actions taken by the federal government which has amassed far more power through the formation of bureaucratic agencies than our founders ever intended.

I know that I do.

--we have come a long way from a Constitutional Republic, -- it has been subverted, and destroyed--
-may the dreams of our founding fathers , along with many of ours-rest in peace.

 

[HoppinHalfPints]

I'd like to mention that Bundy's son and supporters where escalating things. There was a lot of yelling and cursing at agents. While the dog did lunge at Bundy's son it was never released. This only occurred after Bundy was ordered to move back well over a dozen times. The agents were greatly outnumbered. I'm actually shocked they allowed Bundy to keep yelling and getting in the agents face. They showed a lot of restraint, much more than a typical officer would have. I have formed my opinion from watching the video several times on youtube. The video not the BS still shot commentary that is being circulated.

Sort of like the Boston Massacre... But from what Miss M was saying, they had helicopters, a swat team, heck I wouldn't be surprised if they had a tank. I doubt they were outnumbered.

 

[ckcs]

I see that Bundy put his foot in his mouth today. His idiotic racial comments are appalling. He has some balls talking about the government subsidizing people. Compared to public grazing fees Bundy has been getting a free ride of about $16,000 a month.

I've noticed today Fox News has ignored bundy. I o'reilley mentioned bundy every night I've watched him and tonight no mention of him. Hannity at least made a statement on his radio show. The GOP made comments through their staff distancing themselves from bundy. Prior to today though they supported him directly.

 

[HoppinHalfPints]

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids—and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch—they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

He may not have said it in the best of ways (he's an old ranch dude and not "politically correct") but some truth rings out. 73% of African Americans are single moms and dads. I've seen the effects of this in my own family, part of which is African American. Britain has the same problem, only it's white folks over there because of bad culture. Socialism destroys. There is a very high rate of abortion, sadly, in the black community as well. Is it bad for kids? Yes.

I see that Bundy put his foot in his mouth today. His idiotic racial comments are appalling. He has some balls talking about the government subsidizing people. Compared to public grazing fees Bundy has been getting a free ride of about $16,000 a month.

I've noticed today Fox News has ignored bundy. I o'reilley mentioned bundy every night I've watched him and tonight no mention of him. Hannity at least made a statement on his radio show. The GOP made comments through their staff distancing themselves from bundy. Prior to today though they supported him directly.

The issue of Bundy's grazing rights and excessive gov't force doesn't go away just because you don't agree with him. Those guns can be turned on you, you know.

The GOP are cowards for backing down against the gov't push on state's rights. They should have never gotten involved in the first place.

 

[Miss M]

Sort of like the Boston Massacre... But from what Miss M was saying, they had helicopters, a swat team, heck I wouldn't be surprised if they had a tank. I doubt they were outnumbered.

They showed up with some 200 men, plus all the hardware. Bundy had about 50 at his ranch, including a bunch of little grandkids.

They've been finding cattle that were shot multiple times and buried.

I'd like to mention that Bundy's son and supporters where escalating things. There was a lot of yelling and cursing at agents. While the dog did lunge at Bundy's son it was never released.

The BLM escalated things first, showing up like they were going to attack a small country. The dog, maybe it was never released (I don't know, I hadn't read one way or the other), but it was biting his leg anyway.

He may not have said it in the best of ways (he's an old ranch dude and not "politically correct") but some truth rings out. 73% of African Americans are single moms and dads. I've seen the effects of this in my own family, part of which is African American. Britain has the same problem, only it's white folks over there because of bad culture. Socialism destroys. There is a very high rate of abortion, sadly, in the black community as well. Is it bad for kids? Yes.

Absolutely. He definitely could have said it better (a LOT better), but if you read and think about what he was saying, there's a lot of truth to it. Slavery is evil. When this country had open slavery, they knew they were slaves. Now the slavery is more discreet, more insidious, but it is still there, and it's a lot bigger. Only now, they don't realize they are slaves. Welfare is slavery. My husband walks in it every day. These people (plenty of white ones, too) sell their lives to the government. If they try to lift themselves up, everything they get is gone. Get married, it's all gone. They are kept down, under the government's thumb, and they don't even realize they're slaves.

My mom used to be a computer programmer for the state. A pretty, young, brilliant black lady came and worked there for a while. Then she turned in her notice. My mom asked her why she was leaving, since she was a good programmer with a solid, well-paying career ahead of her. Her answer? "My mama told me I'm old enough to have a baby and go on welfare." She was trading a life of self-determination and personal accomplishment for a life of servitude to the government, in which accomplishment is punished with removal of benefits.

And yes, if you look at the history of Planned Parenthood, and Margaret Sanger, and the eugenics movement, it's mind-blowing. Margaret Sanger quote: "We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." (Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon)

The issue of Bundy's grazing rights and excessive gov't force doesn't go away just because you don't agree with him. Those guns can be turned on you, you know.

And that's the real point here. It doesn't matter whether you like him, or whether he's a racist. Even racists and people you don't like should have the same rights as everyone else. The BLM overstepped. That's the issue.

The GOP are cowards for backing down against the gov't push on state's rights. They should have never gotten involved in the first place.

I absolutely agree. The guy says something uncouth, and suddenly you drop him like a hot potato. Suddenly, it doesn't matter that a small army descended on his ranch. It doesn't matter that the government did the big wrong here. If the only people you're going to stand up for are suave orators who never say anything wrong, then stay out of it.

 

[ckcs]

They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

The guy is a loon and I believe a racist. He breaks the law for 20 years. He continually says he only acknowledges the sheriff as the only authority. I won't even get into we're that thought process comes from. He has eluded to fighting anyone one other than the sheriff. His supporters say they will put woman on the frontline if the Feds come after bundy. And this is the conservative rights hero? Good grief no man was was better off being a slave and to wonder that is very disturbing.

I just don't see how the government used excessive force but many seem to think they did. I ask How should they have removed his cattle from the land? They had a court order granting them the right to remove the cattle. You may disagree with the law but he blatantly violated it for 20 years.

I am a firm believer in the 2nd amendment. On one hand I think a background check is reasonable. On the other hand I don't think you should need a conceal carry permit. I don't fear law abiding citizens with guns. However seeing all these militia groups descending on Bundy's small town seems ridiculous. I personally find it comical when people claim they are arming themselves because they feel they may have to fight or overthrow the government. That may have been a possibility when the 2nd amendment was written but you have zero chance today. Now if you want to train because you enjoy it and it's good exercise, go for it.

I'm close to the middle on many issues, but lean left or right on a lot of issues. I do love hearing the folks at Fox News talk about a smaller government and then harp on why marijuana should stay illegal. I'll ad that I don't smoke, drink or do drugs.

Bundy is no patriot. He just wants a free ride. I have a pretty small garden maybe people will think I'm a hero if I plant some crops outside the federal building. I'll just fire the Feds. I'll make sure that I yell and scream and carry my gun. Now when they come to get me don't dare show up will too many police officers. Ps make sure they are unarmed

 

[michaels4gardens]

The Bundy story was fabricated by the Government ,because, -The BLM had a contract with the Chinese to build a solar instalation on the land-- the Fedral judge stopped that also-- and Bundy is a true American, -- and for once the truth is coming out. ---And ...we still had an honest Federal Judge, -
---Will the American people never learn, -- the media is controlled by the " Federal ministry of mis-information" and only reflects what they want you to think or feel.....You will never get the "other side of the story" , or "the truth", from the regular [main-stream] news. They just feed you propaganda [and emotional programing]so you can think you you are "informed".
If you really want to be informed look up the local news from the area the stories are coming from. or Drudge report..or AMTV news.----- even the Moscow Times [ http://www.themoscowtimes.com ] does a better job of informing their people...

 

[HoppinHalfPints]

I just don't see how the government used excessive force but many seem to think they did. I ask How should they have removed his cattle from the land? They had a court order granting them the right to remove the cattle. You may disagree with the law but he blatantly violated it for 20 years.

They should have removed his cattle from the land humanely. You believe marching on a 60-70 year old man's house with a helicopter and swat team isn't going overboard? Then, to add the cherry to the top, they shoot, kill, and maim many of his animals. Would you like it if an AR person came, confiscated your animals, then proceeded to kill most of them? Plus, it was calving season and many of the cows had young 'uns. They were trampled then left for dead. How can you possibly think that is okay? I agree that he did violate the law, but I think the gov't should not have gotten involved and it should have been left to the state to handle.

The guy is a loon and I believe a racist.

Ahh, and here is the "racist" thing again.

rac·ist
ˈrāsist/
noun
1.
a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
synonyms: racial bigot, racialist, xenophobe, chauvinist, supremacist More
(racially) discriminatory, racialist, prejudiced, bigoted

So, basically, you believe he is a racist because he called African-Americans Negros? Do you know, that was the most common term used to describe black people back in the 60's-70's? Now it's changed due to "Political Correctness." Again, I believe he could have said it a lot better, but I think that he does have a point.

To add, where exactly did it scream "racist!" to you? I saw no indication of believing white people to be superior to black. Could you point out where?