wool softness and color pigment relationship

I swear my REW are softer than my darker colored rabbits. I believe I notice a softer feel even in my Sable Chinchilla and Fawn compared to my Chestnut, specifically. I am comparing litter mates, so it's not the line... Anyone else experience anything like this? I'm wondering if the pigmentation density causes some coarseness.

Or maybe I'm off my rocker. :cuckoo:

if we are talking about angoras I don't see it in mine. My REW doe is far more coarse than my Lilac buck. in my English angoras they are both have the same softness. The kits from my REW and Lilac are softer than their mother (it could be just baby fur though) and my FG/FA mix is softer than my REW but coarser than my lilac buck.

so I think softness is a breeding thing. same like color and body type.

I have read that human hair does have different qualities according to color but I can't remember where I read it. Blonds have more individual hairs.

Thank you. Yes, French Angoras. I have noticed this in numerous litters. Certainly over 100 kits by the age of 14 weeks. All the baby wool is softer than adult, but I am comparing same age kits of different colors. The darker ones just don't ever seem to compare to the REW or even the lighter colors. In the adults, I feel it is a little bit more obvious. But, I don't always have several related rabbits to compare. There are about 36 adults, however.

I know there is a difference in sheen with colors, because of the space that pigments take up. I just wonder if there may also be some texture to that pigment.

Just one of those nagging curiosities for me! <br /><br /> __________ Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:20 pm __________ <br /><br />

alforddm":1pvrshl5 said:

I have read that human hair does have different qualities according to color but I can't remember where I read it. Blonds have more individual hairs.

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I just found some information on this in humans, too. I read that the lighter hair colors are finer and more densely cover an area. This really would feel softer, IMO. So are there any science-gurus out there that know about pigments and the space they occupy?

There is a respectable theory that so many birds have black wing tips because the melanin protects the feathers from wear. You can see it repeated here by the Cornell Lab of Ornithology and there is a related paper here (Bonser 1995, Melanin and the Abrasion Resistance of Feathers) which talks a little about possible causes.

That paper mentions the effects of adding a granular filler to a polymer. In this case the granular filler would be melanosomes and the polymer is the keratin of the hair or feather. However there is a problem with applying this idea in your case. While a REW lacks melanin, it does not lack melanosomes. The melanosomes are smaller, and are empty (full of fluid?) rather than full of pigment (there may even be fewer of them, I'm not sure) but they are there. Maybe the differences in size and content could be enough to make a difference? A BEW, broken or dutch on the other hand would lack melanosomes in the white areas.

Dilutes have abnormal melanosomes (over sized and/or clumped together) and there is a specific type of dilution in dogs that results in brittle hairs, presumably because the large clumps of melanosomes create points of weakness.

The Bonser paper also neglects to mention that granular inclusions can act as endpoints for crack propagation. This doesn't seem relevant to your question of softness, but does seem relevant to general wear and tear in the context of wing tips.

My chocolate chinchillas always have coarser coats than their black chinchilla or self black littermates - they also tend to be the runts of the litter :x

We also breed black, blue and lavender Orpington chickens and the Lavs always seem to have more split feathers than the other two :shrug:

I'm sure there must be some relationship between colour and fur or feather quality even if it's a recessive gene closely linked on the DNA to the colour that just hitchhikes along but can eventually be weeded out

I've seen other people mention how true black rabbits have silkier fur than other rabbit colors. I know that 'gray hairs' :roll: on humans are coarser than normal hairs. I don't see why there wouldn't be a correlation between other rabbit colors and softness of fur.

Wow, thank you everyone for your responses! I'm glad I'm not alone in pondering texture. When I think about it, it is slightly more often the Chestnut I see the coarseness in (I wouldn't actually call it coarse, just not ultra-soft). I can see a number of these posts explaining color and coarseness in part. I'll probably never understand it fully. It's a curious thing that keeps me wondering. I think I'll experiment with keeping back only exceptionally soft Chestnut offspring.

This quote from twr "Dilutes have abnormal melanosomes (over sized and/or clumped together) and there is a specific type of dilution in dogs that results in brittle hairs, presumably because the large clumps of melanosomes create points of weakness." might explain the texture of a Lilac I had.

I'm on my tablet so not making a really long reply but, color genes often affect other aspects of health. For example MLPH gene mutations (dilute in many species) can cause health problems some of which are severe. One in mice causes blood disorders. So, it makes sense that other things are effected. It may be just differences in pigment, but it could be other subtle differces as well.

alforddm":1sospngx said:

I'm on my tablet so not making a really long reply but, color genes often affect other aspects of health. For example MLPH gene mutations (dilute in many species) can cause health problems some of which are severe. One in mice causes blood disorders. So, it makes sense that other things are effected. It may be just differences in pigment, but it could be other subtle differces as well.

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I'd love to hear more about this when you have time.

What an interesting topic.

http://colorgenetics.info/general/disea ... coat-color

This an an article I wrote a few years ago. I misremembered. It wasnt MLPH that caused the blood disorders but a gene with similar function.

i cant say for other animals but I know with Jacob sheep the white wool is *always* softer than the colored wool. these are very old breed sheep and many believe they are the closest true breed to what was around Jesus' time. Most Jacobs are two colors (white and another color) and if you want a good soft wool the best you can do is breed for all white or mostly white OR breed to get the other color wool as fine as you can to get it close to the fineness of the white wool. I was lucky enough to once find a very nice Jacob roving at a sale price and the brown wool was just barely noticeable less soft than the white and only to someone who knows a bit about fiber because it was blended together and you really had to pick it apart and look and feel very close to tell.

That said from my memory the REWs I had seemed softer than other colors.

I have a small flock of Cormo sheep, and it occurs to me that the breeder I bought them from told me that the black ones would not have as fine wool.

My purebred lilacs had fantastic coat texture, which carried some interesting properties to the mixes I had later..

Among the dilute, non-dilute, chocolate, and non chocolate kits, I have never been able to detect a difference in coat texture that was color linked. Textures were pretty much all over the place because they were mixed breed though, and most were never given a chance to grow into their adult coats.

And, on a broken velveteen, the black parts seem to be just as soft as the white.
Not sure that helps any... :lol:

I get the feeling I'm going to be known as the cat lady, with the amount of things I've been saying recently that start with "well in CAT breeding..." :lol:

However! My specialties were bicolour and Siamese cats, and the white hair areas on my cats and those of my acquaintances were always noticeably softer and fluffier than the pigmented hair areas, and Siamese (Himalayan) patterned hair was comparatively coarse to the touch, but not unpleasantly so. And judges at shows would often be able to (and indeed have to) use feel to differentiate between truly non-pigmented white areas, and just pale warm-body colour Siamese areas on the lighter coloured of my cats, like red or cream tabby pointed bicolours. The texture difference is a noticeable thing.

Again, whether or not this actually applies to rabbits is beyond me, all my genetics and related knowledge is kitty catty... just thought it would be an interesting extra piece of data to add to the discussion - cats, as well as people and sheep, have a colour-texture link in hair. Heh.

The blue americans also had REALLY nice coats, compared to the flemish/NZ and NZ we had.
I've heard at last one experienced show breeder state that REW velveteens took longer to get the proper coat "feel." <br /><br /> __________ Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:19 pm __________ <br /><br /> I'll just add this anyway, I'm sure MSD won't mind

MamaSheepdog wrote:Just a note on broken patterns and showing rabbits; often times the colored fur and the white have a different texture, so the blanket patterns are preferred if fur texture is a source of lots of points.

My personal preference is for the lightly marked butterfly (?) pattern, but on the show table (especially with Satins) the difference in texture is very noticeable, so the blanketed rabbits do better.

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My REWs always have the best fur, texture and length,. Angora and Jersey Wooly.

I've been told by Alpaca breeders that they darker fibers, black and brown are coarser than white and fawns.

My colored german angora's are softer than my rew's. I don't know if that has anything to do with pigment or if it's my Agouti buck's influence. He is softer than the rew does I used.