your thoughts on Creme d'Argents?

[JessiL]

Hi everyone!

So, in the way that these things can happen, I have somehow been persuaded to serve as the Nevada director for a new club of western Creme d'Argent breeders. It didn't bother the organizers that I don't actually have any Cremes! Champagnes are apparently close enough...

Anyway, it got me thinking about that breed. They sure are pretty, but does anyone have any idea about how they do as far as litter size, growth rates, mothering ability, dress-out, etc. etc. I wouldn't be adverse to adding a few if they would be worth my time. We do mostly meat around here, and I select for litter sizes of at least 8, 5 pounds by 10 weeks (stretch to 11 or 12 in rough climate conditions or huge litters), non-aggressive personalities, and year-round breeding (through 100+ degree summers and freezing all the time in winter). My Americans do that all without problems, my Champagnes are coming along (they like to take winter breeding breaks).

So, any comments, preferably from personal or near-personal experience, about the Creme d'Argent breed would be welcome!

Thanks, Jessi

 

[akane]

Most cremes are not very pure. Even those that have a large enough local following they are very specific to the area. You really can't ask someone in a different part of the country about your local cremes.

 

[Miss M]

I didn't know they weren't very pure.

They sure are pretty, though.

 

[akane]

Ours all have NZ back there somewhere. Even if it's not on the pedigree you can see the influence.

 

[JessiL]

Yes, I guess it doesn't make too much sense to ask about a particular breed when I know very well that so much depends on the particular strain that you buy/work with it. But still, it does seem that in many breeds, you can make at least some generalizations that ring true in most cases. For example, my Champagnes are mellow sweethearts, while my Americans are "spirited," and I hear those are pretty typical personalities for those breeds.

I am ok with the possibility for other breeds' blood in the backgrounds, as long as it's due to a deliberate breed improvement program. Heck, all breeds were mutts at one stage!

 

[akane]

It's not so much that it's a problem but that having other breeds in the background means they will take those traits. Ours had the production ability of a good NZ meat rabbit. Litters around 8 year round. Could make a nest good enough to raise them in subzero weather. Good temperament for cage or colony. It seems litters around 5 like I got out of my champagnes are more normal in cremes with less influence from meat rabbit lines. They will probably have a temperament close to champagnes but not if they have a more nervous breed in them.

 

[Dood]

The crosses are more limited since not many breeds have red/fawn (unlike self black) so I would think that NZReds would be the go to cross, possibly Satins or an angora :shrug:

I doubt Thriantra or Mini Lops would be used but you never know :mrgreen:

 

[akane]

Most of the time I actually see NZW with the rew popping up here and there in the supposedly pure creme lines and I would get some blacks and torts. I guess since it's so hard to find all the genes needed to make the creme color some people just throw their hands in the air and grab the nearest thing with the same body type. Usually that's an NZW. Then keep using the ones that come out red. Wideband is frequently lost and the silvering reduced compared to the better champagnes I had.

 

[JessiL]

Why wouldn't folks use Champagnes? It would take just a few generations if the Champagne was truly black under the silvering, and the Creme truly red/fawn/orange without any goofy recessives. If I'm not mistaken, Champagne should be aa B_ C_ D_ E_ sisi, and Creme A_ B_ C_ D_ ee sisi. So first gen would be silvered chestnuts, and then it would just be a matter of getting both copies of the wide band gene (and probably test breeding to make sure there wasn't a hidden self gene too).

 

[Dood]

Cremes are also wide band - A_ B_ C_ D_ ee ww

Champagnes are used - with NZReds - to get the Cremes and with the NZ's other hidden recessive genes (like white, self, chocolate and dilute) get passed on as well - then line breeding and inbreeding causes these colours to crop up in litters.

You've got to get the non extension and wide-band genes from somewhere and NZReds are much more common

 

[JessiL]

I just now ordered a Standard of Perfection (yes, I'm a bad rabbit breeder!!), so I don't know for sure quite yet... but doesn't the Creme d'Argent standard call for a white belly? So wouldn't that imply a lack of the ww wideband gene? I've tried googling the genotype and have run into mostly statements that it's ee WW (or more normally, the W locus gets ignored completely).

I'm not trying to be difficult, by the way, it's just that there is so surprisingly little on the internet about this breed, so it's tough to figure out what is going on. It's confusing enough that the breed name uses "cream" which would normally imply the presence of dilution factors!

 

[Dood]

I don't have an SOP but am going from pictures on the internet and most look to be wideband but that might be a European thing :shrug:

 

[akane]

Cremes do have a lighter belly but they are still wideband. It effects the hair shafts in the rest of the coat and not just the belly. To get the correct shade and barring on the hairs you need wideband. Champagnes probably would be a better cross though. Getting the wideband back is no different than getting the silver back. Silver can be tricky to recover properly. There are 3 si genes and modifiers. I think part of it is that champagnes can be hard to get. I drove 4hrs one way for mine. The next closest is 5-6hrs. NZ are everywhere. Even red isn't too difficult to get your hands on.

 

[JessiL]

This is getting far from my original question/post, but anyway, in which breeds does red/fawn/orange not involve the presence of the wideband gene? And how would one recognize that a Creme (or other rabbit) lacked the wideband gene - would there be a pronounced undercolor in addition to a snow white belly?

In general, I am fascinated by the variability of undercolors in what are supposed to be straightforward self rabbits, and really should take better notes to try to figure out what the genetic influences might be. If anyone has any insight or even a hare-brained theory, feel free to chime in.

 

[Dood]

In the "wideband group" only reds must be wideband

Wideband extends the middle band so in chestnuts they have less slate and more pearl/white

In agouti non-extensions (which restricts the black/slate bands) the red/orange/fawn colour predominates giving the illusion of a self red

This is how Nock rabbits explained it - http://www.nockrabbits.com/wbinfo2.html

In true self rabbits wideband should have no effect

- in non extension and selfs you get wideband torts which have extreamly reduced black and extended red/orange/fawn for a very striking color - see picture there are 3 wideband torts

- the wideband gene turns otters into tans

 

[Honorine]

When I had Cremes they were pretty straightforward- they did not carry REW- or self, and mine shared some ancesters. Litters were large- 12 was the biggest I had. Conformation was all over the place- drove me nuts, bad shoulders here, pinched quarters there- I actually had a entire litter of 12 survive to weaning and every rabbit seemed different, looked different, very inconsistant. Type was not great- vigor and fertility was good. Silvering was greatly variable- mine weren't the ones that looked almost white- they weren't that heavily silvered. Fawn color was consistant- no reds. I feel that mine were probably as close to being considered 'pure' as any rare breed can be- there was little NZ influence or the type would have been much better. But they sure weren't cookie cutter-

 

[JessiL]

Thanks for the thoughts, Honorine.

I still haven't made a decision about this... The folks I was probably going to get foundation stock from did poorly at the ARBA convention. Yes, I know that one judge can interpret the standard very differently from another, and also that regional trends influence the local standards, but still... Part of me wants to just go all-American to take advantage of the cage space, part of me still loves the Champagnes (they have wonderful personalities - if they would just breed every time I took them to the buck like my promiscuous Americans!), and part wants to try something new! In other words, Rabbitosis is in full effect!