Wrong All Along??? Opal vs Blue Otter...

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MamaSheepdog

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I am now completely and totally confused. :? The SOP for Opal Rex makes no mention of chin markings, ear lacing, or nose color... and yet all the images I have found show that pattern. What I know as Opal actually matches the SOP for Blue Otter, except the front feet have some tan markings and are not clear blue. Also, mine have ring color on the body. So what do I actually have?

From the ARBA SOP:

OPAL- Top color is to be a rich, medium blue, carried well down the sides. Intermediate, or ring color, is to be golden tan, clearly defined over slate blue undercolor. Belly is to be white or tan, over blue undercolor. Eyes- Blue-gray.

OTTER-BLUE_ Body color to be a dark rich blue, running deep towards the skin, uniform throughout. Eye color- Blue Gray. Toenails to be pigmented and as dark as possible.
Pattern- Underside of chin and tail are to be pale cream. Belly to be a pale cream to the skin, or pale cream over slate blue, and divided from the blue body color by a distinct border of fawn. Nostrils and triangle are to be fawn. Eye circles and inside of ears are to be pale cream. Chest is to be an even mixture of blue and fawn merging with the main body color. The forefeet shall be entirely blue. The fawn border between the belly and flanks shall continue down to the hind feet.

Here are a couple of pics of what I call my "Tweener Opals", which seem to conform better to the standard for "Opal" as described above:

IMG_6322.JPG
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She appears to be Astrex coated, but the curl disappears when they get their adult coat.

Here is what I have always considered to be Opal, but am now questioning:

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Belly color of different junior doe:

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Here are the Opal and Tweener together:

IMG_6351.JPG

Opal, broken Opal, Tweener:

IMG_6355.JPG
 

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Secuono

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Cannot help any, but love this pic. =D
4849
 

MKirst

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This whole Opal vs Blue Otter deal is what I'm researching right now. I'm working on Jack and CupCakes punnett square along with their breeding records and I'm having conflicting opinions from different websites where I post Jacks picture as to what he is. Some say Opal, some say Blue Otter some people say something completely different. lol

I'm getting alot of questions like was his mom blue and was his dad chestnut that carries dilute .. because if so then he is a true opal. But I can't answer that because his background is completely unknown. I bought him from an auction.

I wanna say he is Blue Otter simply because he has the triangle on the back of his neck and Agouti pattern. But then I read the SOP for Blue Otter and his forefeet are not completely blue and another website said Otters don't carry the Agouti genes.

So I dunno. Anyone know what Jack is for sure ? :x

IMG_20121023_130427-1.jpg
 

3mina

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The one on the left of your broken is a blue otter, I have one just like her. The self I'm thinking is a blue as well not an opal but I could be entirely wrong
 

skysthelimit

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the one is an otter, the other is a self, if the belly is no white. the opal has castor color rings, castor color around the ears as well, and is agouti marked with a white belly.

verizon

__________ Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:20 pm __________

MKirst":36vqmrhg said:
I'm getting alot of questions like was his mom blue and was his dad chestnut that carries dilute .. because if so then he is a true opal. But I can't answer that because his background is completely unknown. I bought him from an auction.

I wanna say he is Blue Otter simply because he has the triangle on the back of his neck and Agouti pattern. But then I read the SOP for Blue Otter and his forefeet are not completely blue and another website said Otters don't carry the Agouti genes.

So I dunno. Anyone know what Jack is for sure ? :x

IMG_20121023_130427-1.jpg
Jack is an opal. Otters cannot carry the agouti gene. he would be almost solid blue, with tan around the white on the ears, nose and other parts that are white. Agoutis have rings in the fur.<br /><br />__________ Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:22 pm __________<br /><br />What is the parentage for the solid. It almost looks lilac to me, but it could be the light.
 

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MamaSheepdog

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skysthelimit":7q0krv9k said:
the one is an otter, the other is a self, if the belly is no white. the opal has castor color rings, castor color around the ears as well, and is agouti marked with a white belly.

Clarify please... in the last pic, from left to right, would you state your color opinions, because I am confused, especially as to who you think is a self. I could take a pic of a blue as well, if that would help.

I also found a bunny that I thought was an Opal, with the agouti-type markings, but no apparent ring color- so that one I would think is a blue otter for sure.
 

caroline

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The most important distinction between otter and agouti is that agouti has ring color and otter does not.When you blow into the fur the base color will be lighter but there is no distinct 3 ring [in some cases 5 ring] color. Also the neck triangle on the otters is much more obvious. You don't have a triangle on agoutis, although their neck fur may be lighter than the rest of the coat.
I have seen some "bad" opals,that have white whee it should been tan/cream. But they were not otters. No neck triangle.
 

skysthelimit

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Opals have agouti markings. otters have the same markings, both have white bellies, so even without proper rings, the ones that don't have white bellies, eye, ear and nose markings are not agouti.

__________ Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:38 pm __________

Caroline beat me to it. Even a bad opal with no distinct castor color ring usually still has a white ring in the blue.<br /><br />__________ Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:41 pm __________<br /><br />Otters also have ticking along the skirt and legs, castor color ticking. Wish I had a blue otter to show you, I just have black.
 

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MamaSheepdog

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If they are Otters, shouldn't I have had some Black Otters when breeding to blacks?
 

skysthelimit

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MamaSheepdog":1uwz0ue7 said:
If they are Otters, shouldn't I have had some Black Otters when breeding to blacks?

Perhaps. If the blacks carry blue, you could go some time without getting black otters, just blue and blue otters. Breeding my castor to my broken black got 4 blacks and one broken black, then 5 blacks.
 

caroline

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MamaSheepdog":83bjasm9 said:
If they are Otters, shouldn't I have had some Black Otters when breeding to blacks?
Either black,or blue,if the black carries dilute. what did you get? You can't get agouti [castor,opal, amber,lynx]from breeding otter to self. You can only get more otter, or self, if the otter carries self.
 

skysthelimit

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MamaSheepdog":1wgfejnc said:
Why does the SOP for Opal not mention nose and chin markings and ear lacing?


That is a question I cannot answer, but the accepted definition of agouti marked involves a white belly, ear lacing, eye circles and the castor base color at the nape of the neck. All agoutis of all breeds are agouti marked, so maybe somewhere there is a definition of agouti? I will have to look for that.

Even in the absence of those three, the belly still needs to be white, and there needs to be rings.<br /><br />__________ Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:06 pm __________<br /><br />Here's something interesting

The normal “agouti color” in rabbits is the original color of the wild rabbit: a two-toned gray-brown, with more than one color on each strand. All other rabbit colors are modifications to this basic color and pattern. Agoutis have a marking pattern that involves lighter coloration on their belly, chest, insides of their legs and tops of their toes and underside of their tail. They have light markings around their eyes, insides of ears, nape of neck and by their nostrils and underside of their jowls. The main body color has “rings” – when you blow into their fur, you will see at least three bands of colors: the undercolor (color of fur at the skin), the intermediate band (center band of color which creates the main color of the rabbit) and the surface band (this is the ‘ticking’ of the main color). They may also be more heavily ticked at the edge of their ears. http://www.examiner.com/article/agouti- ... ts-rodents


My sable german shepherd is an agouti, and also has a lighter belly, eye circles, ear lacing and a darker patch of tan behind the ears.
 

3mina

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MamaSheepdog":1zyjxfo3 said:
Clarify please... in the last pic, from left to right, would you state your color opinions, because I am confused, especially as to who you think is a self.

Left to right, blue otter, broken, self (solid) blue. The one with no other colours is the self coloured rabbit.
 

MKirst

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So then an Opal is really a full extension (Blue) or dilute black Agouti and a Blue Otter is full extension dilute of black in "at" genes paired with a self gene ? This is so confusing.

I don't think I'm understanding this right. So if I blow into Jacks fur and there's rings or color bands he's an Agouti and if no color bands/rings he's Otter ?
 

Nyctra

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I'm not sure what the SOP refers to, but from what I know so far, opal means blue agouti [ A_ B_ C_ dd E_ ], and blue otter [ aa(t) B_ C_ dd E_ ] is non-agouti blue with the otter pattern.
Otter/Tan can be seen on black, blue, chocolate, and lilac non-agouti's, and can even show up on torted rabbits. Throw in the chinchilla gene and the otter pattern changes a bit to turn into 'marten' I think?
kehehe Crazy genetics. o3o
I wonder if otter would have an influence on a steel rabbit's appearance? :shock:
 

skysthelimit

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MKirst":32kno6a3 said:
So then an Opal is really a full extension (Blue) or dilute black Agouti and a Blue Otter is full extension dilute of black in "at" genes paired with a self gene ? This is so confusing.

I don't think I'm understanding this right. So if I blow into Jacks fur and there's rings or color bands he's an Agouti and if no color bands/rings he's Otter ?

All are full color (C) varieties. All are non extension (E) varieties. Opal and blue are not the same locus. Blue (aaB_C_ddE_) is a dilute self black (aaB_C_D_E_) . Opal (A_B_C_dd_E)is a dilute black agouti(A_B_C_DE). Otter (at_B_C_D_E_)is a tan pattern.

Yes. Unless there is something really wrong, all agoutis have rings, even if the the rufus band is missing, there will be clear blue/black, white, surface color rings.<br /><br />__________ Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:48 pm __________<br /><br />
Nyctra":32kno6a3 said:
I'm not sure what the SOP refers to, but from what I know so far, opal means blue agouti [ A_ B_ C_ dd E_ ], and blue otter [ aa(t) B_ C_ dd E_ ] is non-agouti blue with the otter pattern.
Otter/Tan can be seen on black, blue, chocolate, and lilac non-agouti's, and can even show up on torted rabbits. Throw in the chinchilla gene and the otter pattern changes a bit to turn into 'marten' I think?
kehehe Crazy genetics. o3o
I wonder if otter would have an influence on a steel rabbit's appearance? :shock:


Steel should have no affect on an otter, because it just causes the black band to go further down the hair shaft, and since there are no rings on the otter, you would never know this, unless it went so far down that the lower band otter markings were affected.
 

skysthelimit

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Devon's Mom Lauren":2jg4cfaq said:
But steel could affect an Opal.. just like it affects a castor or a chestnut.

Now I would like to see that. I saw a pict of a steel affected castor and it was very interesting. It kind of looked like a reverse tort, best way I can describe it. I might like that in dilute.
 

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