Worming

[Willow]

I was wondering what everyone here uses to worm? I have heard different things and I was just wondering what everyone here does?

Also do you have a schedule of how often you worm?

 

[MaggieJ]

Routine worming should not be necessary if the rabbits are raised in clean surroundings and you are not bringing in new stock or showing rabbits. Parasites must come from somewhere; they do not spontaneously appear. I have never had the need to worm my rabbits and have never seen any sign of internal parasites.

I do feed pumpkin seeds in the fall when they are plentiful. We always have some pumpkins growing in our garden and the rabbits will eat all parts - flesh, pulp and seeds - as part of their natural diet. Pumpkin seeds (and squash seeds) contain a substance that paralyses worms and allows the rabbit to expel them. They are also extremely nutritious. Do not used seed packaged for planting... It usually contains fungicides and could be unsafe.

There is a case to be made for worming show rabbits, new rabbits and any rabbits that have possibly been exposed to internal parasites but I will pass the discussion at this point to those whose rabbits may fall into these categories. I have a small closed rabbitry and I have only brought in three rabbits after our initial purchase in 2005. They are all meat mutts, so showing is irrelevant.

 

[Secuono]

What about rabbits on the ground/grass? Wild animals easily pass through yards and worms will be present in most lawns.

 

[MaggieJ]

This could be a problem in areas that do not get a "real winter". Parasites in general are more of a problem, it seems, in hot climates, particularly hot, humid climates. I know some people do feel the need for routine worming of their rabbits. Having fecal samples analyzed would indicate whether this is necessary.

 

[akane]

Parasites must come from somewhere; they do not spontaneously appear.

Parasites are everywhere. They are spread by vermin, predators, birds, bugs... Your animals will be exposed and so will you. If you are feeding fresh forages this is even more of a concern. Eating vegetation that other animals have left waste on is the main way our grazing livestock ingest parasite eggs so with your fresh diet you are potentially depending on wildlife levels in the area or if you are gathering from a pasture feeding your rabbits parasites. *This is by no means a word against fresh foods simply that everything has it's price* We always dewormed guinea pigs allowed to eat grass near the horse pasture or clover picked from the fence line. It was slightly less concern with forage from the hay field but there were still a lot of rodents living out there.

One way or another they will be exposed but whether parasites get to a level that causes health problems depends on the animals' living situation much like it depends on your own hygiene (although most humans could use a dewormer every few years even with modern hygiene). If they are in contact with their own feces in a colony and especially a big or crowded colony parasites should be a real possibility with wildlife bringing them in from outdoors. Unless it is overly expensive in your area it is best to do fecals on all animals kept on the ground and occasionally parasite problems do show up in caged rabbits with properly sterilized cages. I have even heard of one case that was so severe in stock that was kept off the ground in a clean building, with cages sterilized properly twice a year, that there were several deaths on deworming by vet orders (ivermectin was not used but I forget what) from excessive parasite die off all at once. It happens in rabbits, it just doesn't happen as often as other livestock who graze all day or eat hay all day where they stand and poop.

 

[ladysown]

I will plead with you.. do not get into routine worming. Treat on a case by case basis.

Get a fecal done. treat with a rabbit safe med NOT ivermectin as it stays with rabbits I've learned up to six months! Panacur is a safe one, it is inexpensive as well, and does the job nicely.

Worms tend not to be a big issue with caged rabbits.

 

[fuzzy9]

Panacur is what I'm using for my breeding rabbits now. ladysown is correct about price, my vet gave me enough to dose 40 rabbits 2x, and it was $20. You can buy Panacur in paste form for horses, and it's very cheap, but I got the liquid from my vet, and it's soooo much easier to dose correctly. Liquid is also easier to get in them. It is required to get a prescription for the liquid form though.

 

[MaggieJ]

I've been mulling this topic over since yesterday and it occurs to me that one of the reasons that internal parasites have not been a problem in my rabbitry is due to diet. Many common weeds that I routinely feed to my rabbits are known to act as natural dewormers. In addition to pumpkin seeds, such plants as lamb's quarters, plantain, dandelion and peppermint all have a role. This interesting little study is worth a read for those who prefer not to use chemical dewormers on a routine basis.

http://www.ethnobiomed.com/content/pdf/ ... 9-7-21.pdf

 

[Miss M]

NOT ivermectin as it stays with rabbits I've learned up to six months!

Up to 6 months?!? Yowch! Do you have sources, so I can look into this further? I just told someone that they had to wait 30 days after ivermectin before butchering a rabbit, and I'm horrified that this somewhat common knowledge may be that wrong! I certainly don't want to mislead anyone about ivermectin in meat rabbits.

Found this in an old thread, so I'll be looking over it - http://www.drugs.com/mmx/ivermectin.html<br /><br />__________ Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:36 pm __________<br /><br />This is what that article says:

Half-life:

22 to 28 hours; however, some reports have shown a half-life of 12 to 16 hours for ivermectin and 3 days for its metabolites.

After 10 half-lives, only .1% would remain. 10 half-lives for ivermectin would be 12 days (using the 28-hour measurement), and for the metabolites would be 30 days.

After 30 days, .000003% of the ivermectin would remain, and .1% of the metabolites would remain. If we were talking radioactivity, the ivermectin would have passed the "effectively gone" point at 24 days (20 half-lives).

After 60 days, .0000095% of the metabolites would remain, this would be the 20 half-lives that is considered "effectively gone" for nuclear waste.

For medications:

quote from Basic Clinical Pharmacology by Michael Winter:

"The time required for a drug concentration to reach steady state is determined by the drug's half-life. It takes one half-life to reach 50%, 2 half-lives to reach 75%, 3 half-lives to reach 87.5%, 3.3 half-lives to reach 90%, and 4 half-lives to reach 93.75% of steady state....In most clinical situations, the attainment of steady state can be assumed after 3-5 half-lives."

The same numbers 3-5 half-lives are used to calculate the elimination of the drug.

If we take Klonopin's longest half-life number, which is 50 hours, that would be 50hours x 5 = 250 hours = 10.42 days. So it takes around 10 days for Klonopin to build to full strength is the blood stream and likewise it takes about that time for the drug to be eliminated.

In the case of valium, the longest half-life is 200 hours. So full strength is achieved after 200hours X 5 = 1000hours = 41.66 days.

Note that build up and elimination of all drugs can be calculated in the same way. http://www.benzosupport.org/drug_half-life.htm

Doubling the dose of medication requires only one more half-life to bring it to the same concentration as a regular dose.

Naturally, the definition of "gone" for taking medication and for eating the meat of an animal that has taken medication will be different.

This publication: http://extension.usu.edu/files/publicat ... -250_2.pdf talks about half-life of medication in meat animals.

In 10 half-life periods, 99.9% of the drug residue will have been eliminated from the animal. If the half-life of a particular drug is 3 hours, almost all of the drug will have been eliminated by 30 hours after administration. If the half-life is 3 days, then it will take 30 days for a similar reduction. Thus, doubling the dose of drug given should only extend the time by one half-life to achieve near compete removal from the body.

While it doesn't come right out and say, "a drug is considered gone from the meat of an animal after 10 half-lives", it does seem to be saying that. It does note that the half-life will be longer in an animal that is sick enough for its biological processes to slow down.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

Those 'half lives' are part of the reason why drug resistant strains of everything bad are showing up---The minute amounts of drug that remain, are not enough to kill the boogers, but enough to help them develop the resistance..

 

[akane]

This will hold true with anything though. Even if we used "all natural" dewormers like pumpkin seeds and such we can build tolerance because we cannot make the level be there at max amount 1 day and gone the next. If we all used the same thing resistance would build to it no matter what it is since many of our concentrated chemicals are simply derivatives of natural plant compounds. However you can't avoid dewormers and topical flea repellants in livestock and pets completely. There is a level you have to maintain based on your situation. All you can do is try to limit use to what is needed for your situation. Taking the extreme sides like absolutely no chemicals even when there are signs of problems or excessive use of chemicals (the case of deworming monthly with ivermectin) is where the biggest problems lie. Not the responsible use of them even when that use is steady.

I do think vets are pushing flea meds way too much. Especially in areas without year round fleas. Our vet flips if we don't use flea repellants monthly but what's a couple fleas gonna do on a dog that isn't allergic... I've been using it every other month in summer and I know many that use it every 6 weeks because they find monthly is pointless and then not at all in winter. On the other hand my mom's allergic dog had to be treated every 2-3weeks all summer or he'd start chewing holes in himself from a flea surviving to bite too much.

The best vet I ever dealt with had 2 suggestions for this. First make everything a case by case basis taking every variable in to account before making a deworm or other preventative medication plan and 2nd rotate medications. 1 year deworm all animals or use a topical with 1 chemical every time for that year. The next year deworm or topical with something else. So ivermectin year 1, fenbendazole year 2 or advantage year 1, frontline year 2. This may not be as effective on one type of worm for a year but it will get them the next and slow resistant strains by giving 2 or 3 years between using the same medication again. For situations that could lead to heavy infestation he then suggested a double whammy with something like zimectrin gold in the fall right before everything around here freezes so very very few parasites would survive.