Why so many NZW crossed with Californians??

[drowe005]

Why are Californian rabbits so hard to find? It seems everyone crosses New Zealands with Californians, but not many pure breed Californians. I own Californians, and are really calm friendly rabbits, and my understanding of the New Zealands is that they can be pretty mean. IMO, why not raise pure bred Californians as it seems there is a huge market for them? atleast in my state and surrounding area. So what it boils down to, is what is the benefits or raising NZW crossed with Californians (both for sale as pets and meat production) vs. purebreed Californian? Thanks

 

[SMR]

Some breed in Calis to help with hq or other aspects that are hard or seem to be impossible to find. I stick with red to red NZ though, don't need flame pointed NZ cropping up... I've had mean and nice NZ's, same with some Calis that have passed through. Over all, they are like any other breed, you can get bad ones and good ones. I wouldn't trade my reds as they're very nice, sweet, easy to handle, never kick or bite, and never have given me any health troubles.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

My understanding is that when Cals and NZs are bred together, the first generation is supposed to have superior weight gain. That "hybrid vigor" is lost in the second generation, and the growth rates revert to what is considered "normal". For meat production, one should maintain purebred stock to replace the breeders as necessary, and cull the entire litters of crossbred rabbits for meat.

 

[Legacy]

I know for me, I prefer colors. I nz aren't any meaner than cali just depends on individual rabbit.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

In rabbits the Cali "points" are based on the Chin gene so it would be impossible to get "red points". I also have no idea why so many cross these two together either, as the Californian is already a cross from the NZW, so as a breed it has already received its "vigor". This is a concept I don't really agree with, some crosses that produce better than themselves are doing that because they each carry compatible attributes that may not necessarily be entirely visible to the owner. There is no way just putting together two different breeds of mediocre type are going to produce more than mediocre, unless they CARRY the genes for it from their ancestors. Crossing two different breeds just means one is crossing two different homozygous rabbits to get a herterozygous rabbit that could carry any combination of gene pairs in the offspring. Its not magic.Don't be fooled, there is just as much junk produced as there are awesome offspring,its just a matter of what the individual rabbit carries. The only reason for crossbreeding would possibly be from lack of availability of a complete pair for breeding in the breeder's own area. We all know if a doe is prime to breed we should breed her and not keep her from production as that may cause problems as well.

 

[Secuono]

I breed pure Cali's, but everyone is looking for NZ in my area...lol.

 

[akane]

I don't know if it's true or not but it seems really accepted knowledge that the first gen cross from NZ and cali produces superior rabbits but breeding those rabbits further takes you back to what you get from just the NZ or just the cali lines. That's why everyone crosses but you are suppose to maintain purebred breeding stock to keep crossing only 1 generation so there should be just as many cali out there.

red to red NZ though, don't need flame pointed NZ cropping up

In rabbits the Cali "points" are based on the Chin gene so it would be impossible to get "red points".

Californians are himis not chins or sables(light chin). You only get points on a self rabbit and red is agouti. Red is actually black based and so are most californians. You'd get a bunch of blacks the first generation and later regular marked cali and I'm not sure what an ee chch rabbit (the nonextension that makes red with the himi that makes cali) is if you put it on a self rabbit. Either a really diluted himi or it would erase the points to the extent it would look like a REW but genetically not be one. I have a netherland himi with half markings from sable point which is ee lines. He has rings of color at the base of his ears that fade off down the tips. His offspring which should be himi never did color up and looked rew right up to 10 weeks old. Haven't heard that they've changed. Seems you just get a bunch of oddly marked white rabbits if you cross himi in to anything that is nonextension.

 

[drowe005]

Thanks for the responses from all. Yesterday I had no clue why this was done so often but thanks to everyone I feel like I have a better understanding of why this is done now, and might try a little experimenting of my own.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

My RAscal-- a NZ CAl cross-- probably many generations down the line-- is NOT a good example of a meat rabbit as far as his body type goes-- At a year of age, he looks like a gangly teenager-- except he does have a very mature looking head!!!( and libido!)

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Californian is the breed name but the colour is known as "Himi" in other breeds, they all are however, Chinchilla-based. The chin gene is part of the C-series and SUPPRESSES all red/tan colour. Sure red is black based but it also can be chocolate based, the non extension gene is separate from the c-series. Non extension Himis look like himi's but have a lot of white on their ears and tails and don't have that "solid" look black nose marking although it can sometomes be hard to tell. A good rule of thumb is to keep the non extension gene away from your Himis totally, as most will be dq'd on the table anyways. Chinchilla is a form of Albinism just in varying degrees from the full agouti down through various shadeds to himi which is just one step above REW or full albinism.

 

[avdpas77]

I also have no idea why so many cross these two together either, as the Californian is already a cross from the NZW, so as a breed it has already received its "vigor". This is a concept I don't really agree with, some crosses that produce better than themselves are doing that because they each carry compatible attributes that may not necessarily be entirely visible to the owner. There is no way just putting together two different breeds of mediocre type are going to produce more than mediocre, unless they CARRY the genes for it from their ancestors. Crossing two different breeds just means one is crossing two different homozygous rabbits to get a herterozygous rabbit that could carry any combination of gene pairs in the offspring. Its not magic.Don't be fooled, there is just as much junk produced as there are awesome offspring,its just a matter of what the individual rabbit carries. The only reason for crossbreeding would possibly be from lack of availability of a complete pair for breeding in the breeder's own area. We all know if a doe is prime to breed we should breed her and not keep her from production as that may cause problems as well.

I don't think that "hybrid vigor" is the same as "superior genes" The offspring are not necessarily superior in type, but simply grow faster. For a meat rabbit, growing faster is a plus. At the same time, one wonders, as much as Cals and NZW have been crossed, how much "hybrid vigor" is really present. I have seen the effects of hybrid vigor in some of my rabbits, but I started with widely different breeds. Even though I have now bred as high a diversity as I was able to obtain, the effect fades quickly. Still, if one can find a good meat breed, that is quite separated from the gene pool of ones does, there is a prominent effect on growth and vigor (this has nothing to do with quality or type).

The Altex bucks coming from the experimental station in Texas are bred for this specific purpose.

 

[skysthelimit]

I was wondering if crossing the cals or NZ with my Rexes would produce a faster/larger growing Rex, sustainable past the first generation? I am not willing to give up the coat just to get a faster growing Rex, so if the trait does not breed true, then it's just as well to live with the Rex as it is, or get some NZ's if I want a faster growing breed.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

The Altex come from Champagnes which have a superior growth rate, so that growth DOES come from somewhere, and not from simple crossbreeding. The NZW's have pretty much stolen the spotlight over the years and not much is made of WHY they were developed as breed in the first place! First, processors wanted a white animal, second they wanted good fur, and breeders wanted bigger litters with good mothering instincts and milking ability. No one was actually trying for "FASTER" and perhaps that trait was forgot about as the NZW was so good in several other areas. Well the untold story here is that the Champagne rabbits have huge growth potential, and mixing them with Flemish and Californians most likely has raised the growth rate. It however, is not from magically crossbreeding but from inherited traits from the parents, period.

There is more to a fryer than "growth rate"; meat to bone ratio does count for a lot too and the Champagnes and Rexes and other breeds still contain this in spades.

 

[avdpas77]

Hopefully, we can agree to disagree on this. There is a lot of literature in many different animal groups that "hybrid vigor" exists. If one mated a Champagne buck with a NZW doe, it is likely that the kits would put on weight as quicker (percentage wise) than either a Champagne x Champagne or NZW x NZW. If Altex were being developed as a "superior" rabbit, then one would expect Altex x Altex crosses to be the best for growth and vigor. Dr Lukefahr et al go to lengths to dismiss this idea.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Hybrid vigor only lasts thru the first cross. You cross a CAL and NZW to get fast growing, meaty rabbits that are eaten, not saved for breeding. Or, you can take one of those crosses and breed it to a Champ or a Satin and still get good growth and meatiness. Once you cross back to one of the original breeds, you lose the hybrid vigor. That is why the Altex is used as a terminal sire. You don't keep the offspring to breed.

 

[drowe005]

Skysthelimit, its funny that you say that cause I was just thinking today of what might happen if I crossed my Californian with my Rex (brownish red), how the rabbits would look, grow, etc.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I currently have a litter that is from a cross of a Chocolate Std. Rex buck and a Chocolate Cali doe. I got 3 White/Cal?, 3 Lilac and 3 Chocolate. One of the White ones died, but the other two are good. They are about a week and a half old now and I don't see any points yet, but you never know....

Here is a link to pics of the kits....

 

[drowe005]

That sounds good, keep us updated if you see anything interesting or unsual fast growth, etc. with the mix.

 

[Sean briggs]

In rabbits the Cali "points" are based on the Chin gene so it would be impossible to get "red points". I also have no idea why so many cross these two together either, as the Californian is already a cross from the NZW, so as a breed it has already received its "vigor". This is a concept I don't really agree with, some crosses that produce better than themselves are doing that because they each carry compatible attributes that may not necessarily be entirely visible to the owner. There is no way just putting together two different breeds of mediocre type are going to produce more than mediocre, unless they CARRY the genes for it from their ancestors. Crossing two different breeds just means one is crossing two different homozygous rabbits to get a herterozygous rabbit that could carry any combination of gene pairs in the offspring. Its not magic.Don't be fooled, there is just as much junk produced as there are awesome offspring,its just a matter of what the individual rabbit carries. The only reason for crossbreeding would possibly be from lack of availability of a complete pair for breeding in the breeder's own area. We all know if a doe is prime to breed we should breed her and not keep her from production as that may cause problems as well.

Hybrid vigor does exist and is well documented. It is nothing magical or confusing when you realize that the most of the negative effect genetic traits out there are recessive. Add to that the fact that different lines/breeds will tend to carry different negative recessive traits.

Hybrid vigor is the result of an animal benefiting from an absence of negative traits being expressed. As a result they tend to be healthier, faster growing, etc... This is because they only carry one of each detrimental gene from each parent line so none of those traits are expressed(since they are recessive). This is also why you see greatly reduced hybrid vigor in the next generation. The second generation is getting the same recessives from both parents and so they start to be expressed again as offspring receive homozygous pairs. Most of the time hybrid vigor is very noticeable in the first generation, slightly noticeable in the second and then pretty much disappears by the third or fourth.

This is why even in commercial chicken production they keep pure lines for breeding and use those to produce the first gen hybrids that are actually used for the meat or egg production.

 

[Scooter1A]

Skysthelimit, its funny that you say that cause I was just thinking today of what might happen if I crossed my Californian with my Rex (brownish red), how the rabbits would look, grow, etc.

I got solid black, and black/white. Nice.