Why is a broken considered aa? And self blacks not BB?

[EnglishSpot]

Why is a broken considered aa? (Because it's not agouti, Aa.) But WHAT is being expressed by that aa that's being trammeled by the ENen? White? Black? What is it self to?

Also, why are blacks listed as B_ and not BB? I know that chocolate is bb, so why wouldn't a self black be BB?

 

[Zass]

1: Any color can be broken. Self, agouti, tan, non extension...anything. Of course, you can't see the pattern on a rew or bew, but that can still be genetic brokens and pass the gene along to their offspring..

2: Bb will also appear as a black. When you look at a visual black you cannot see if it is carrying a recessive copy of the gene that causes rabbits to look chocolate (b) A chocolate parent is pretty much the only way to guarantee the presence of the gene without test breeding.

You can see that a black rabbit has the first B_ though, since it is visually black, so that is all you write on a genotype unless you know for a fact (from parents or test breeding) if rabbit carries chocolate, or not.

 

[EnglishSpot]

So a broken black rabbit is in actuality a black rabbit, like a broken red would actually be a red rabbit, the solid coloring has just been smashed to bits with the Enen. Whatever color that rabbit is showing in it's broken coloring is the color of that rabbit.

For example, I have a self black buck who with a broken black doe had over the course of 2 litters 15 kits. 8 were solid blacks (although a few had white markings, blazes, snips, etc, but not all of them) and the other 7 were broken blacks.

This same black buck I bred to a NZR purebred and got 5 blacks (no white marks on any) and 4 agoutis. If my buck was a Bb, wouldn't he have thrown a couple of chocolates with the NZR? Or would that have been lost in the agouti?

So what happens when I breed a NRZ buck to the broken black doe? Broken agoutis, right?

 

[akane]

En just throws white splotches on any color. Absolutely any color.

Every color aspect has a pair of genes with the most dominant of each pair being displayed. If all black rabbits were BB you would never get a chocolate rabbit. Ever. You need 2 rabbits that have at least 1 b so Bb x Bb or Bb x bb, etc... BB x BB will only ever give you more black based rabbits until the end of time.

 

[TF3]

I believe the red is in the black family, not chocolate, so each would carry B_... If one was black carrying chocolate (Bb) you could get BB OR Bb (black rabbits) both would have to carry chocolate as Bb to have the possibility of bb occurring.

Yes, a broken black is a self coloured rabbit with the ENen.

 

[EnglishSpot]

Excellent, thank you everyone.

So I've come to the conclusion that if I crossed by broken black doe with my NZR, they're going to produce black and broken black kits, yeah? The NZR carries a B and the broken black is also a B, so that would equal little black rabbits, I think.

Am I correct?

 

[akane]

Every rabbit carries 2 genes and can pass either one. Your NZR could be Bb and your black could be Bb and you could then get chocolates because some offspring get a "b" from each one to make bb. Also you are ignoring lots of genes. A black is aaB*C*D*E* (stars or dashes mean unknown genes that could be the same or could be recessive like the chocolate with black), a chestnut is A*B*C*D*E*, the most dominant color of rabbit, and red is A*B*C*D*ee. ee is called nonextension. So you have an "A" for agouti from your red which will lead to some agoutis. Most likely chestnuts. You may not get any blacks if the red is AA because it will have no self "a" to make a self black. If your black is Ee you can get more reds or the self version of red and the nonextension version of black is tort aaB*C*D*ee.

 

[Zass]

Throw steel (another extension gene, often carried invisibly by black or white new zealands) into the mix and you can get gold tipped steels, or genetic agouti steels who just so happen to LOOK exactly like self black rabbits, due to some trick of pairing extension steel (Es) with non-extension (e) Ese.

 

[akane]

And here I was trying not to make it complicated. :lol: Usually with NZ steel pops out of white to other color breedings. I haven't seen any reports of self black steel showing up in NZ pairings but I'm sure it is occasionally possible. Just less likely in NZ.

 

[Zass]

I've spoken to a few people on RT that crossed red new zealands with blacks and managed to get mostly steel kits, or all black and couldn't figure out how.

I actually thought it was more common to see when color crossing NZ than it is in any other breed..
Since there are breeders who color cross steel carrying white with blacks all the time and just eat the visual steels, torts or other off colors.
Any visual black produced is considered a black new zealand despite the steel genes present.

The very high presence of non-extension in NZ whites due to people crossing in reds only increases the chances for masked agoutis to be present.

The black new zealand doe I had was a masked agouti steel...well, it was her or the silver fox buck, since breeding two self black rabbits together really shouldn't throw visual steels. :lol:

My theory was that all of the meat breed's seeming high tendencies for throwing self steels was mostly due to the frequency of crossing steel carrying black or white NZ to everything else.

(edited because I had wording in the wrong place)

 

[Celice]

I've spoken to a few people on RT that crossed red new zealands with blacks and managed to get mostly steel kits, or all black and couldn't figure out how.

I actually thought it was more common to see when color crossing NZ than it is in any other breed..
Since there are breeders who color cross steel carrying white with blacks all the time and just eat the visual steels.
Any visual black produced is considered a black new zealand despite the steel genes present.

The very high presence of non-extension in NZ whites due to people crossing in reds only increases the chances for masked agoutis to be present.

The black new zealand doe I had was a masked agouti steel...well, it was her or the silver fox buck, since breeding two self black rabbits together really shouldn't throw visual steels, torts, or other off colors. :lol:

My theory was that all of the meat breed's seeming high tendencies for throwing self steels was mostly due to the frequency of crossing steel carrying NZ to everything else.

this happens in Flemish Giants too. a Steeled colored rabbits is often registered and shown as a black.

 

[Dood]

Breeding a broken black to a NZRed will produce chestnuts (AKA black agouti) and broken chestnuts (or steel of these if the broken black secretly carries steel ) :cheesysmile:

You will only get black (AKA self black) if the NZRed secretly carries this gene

(And you could get red if the broken black secretly carries non extension )

Technically your broken black is
aa =self (AKA not agouti)
B_ = not chocolate (AKA black)
C_ = full colour (AKA not chin or sable or himi or REW)
D_ = not dilute /blue
Es_ = steel
or
E_ = full extension
ENen = broken (AKA not Charlie or solid)
..... and not Rex, angora, satin, maned .... yadda yadda yadda

While your NZRed is
A_ = agouti
B_ = not chocolate (AKA black)
C_ = full colour (AKA not chin or sable or himi or REW)
D_ = not dilute /blue
ee = non extension
enen= solid

 

[EnglishSpot]

Thank you everyone!!

As I was laying in bed last night, I realized I was ignoring a lot of other hidden genes combos, but was confident I would be educated by the fine folks here (and I have been ).

I am rather excited by the prospect of seeing what will come of this crossing! I knew the brokens would account for about 50% of the litter and that the chestnut agouti was going to be probably the norm, but you all have helped me realize I could see other colors too!!

Thank you!!

I'm going to pick up my other rabbit this week, so maybe we can get one more set of popples in before summer. ArcticWolfLady lamented to me last week as the last of the babies went to their new home, "We need more babies!!" It's hard to realize we've had babies since February! The rabbitry seems really empty now.