Why didn't I get more color?

[GBov]

I like big blankets of color so crossed a doe with a solid blanket of color across her shoulders and hips with nice spotting on the rest of her to a broken buck who had lots of large patches of color.

I got one solid kit and four with lots of 'ittle bitty spots and LOTS of white.

This isn't the first time either, every time I cross broken to broken I seem to get lots of white with little spots of color.

Why?

 

[akane]

You are getting charlies. You don't want to cross brokens to brokens. Double broken genes make nearly all white rabbits that have an increased chance for digestive problems and can't be shown. It's usually only done to get a charlie for future breeding because charlie x solid gets you 100% regular brokens.

 

[Easy Ears]

Yes, you are getting charlies. Thankfully I didn't have to learn that the hard way.
Just breed a solid to a broken, and you should end up with broken or solid babies.

 

[bantambunnies]

People do still breed broken to broken sometimes. It's really the luck of the draw - some may get mostly charlies, some may get mostly solids, and others may get mostly brokens. (The chance of getting brokens is greater than anything else.)

Before I was clear on charlies, I used to breed a charlie and a broken together (which you're pretty much not supposed to do). I actually got mostly brokens, with a few charlies. I guess I was lucky.

 

[akane]

Modifiers can make regular brokens as lightly marked as charlies and a little less often charlies that have enough color for showing or at least to be mistaken for a single broken gene. A certain rabbit or pair could repeatedly throw confusing brokens because of their modifiers. Test breeding needs to be done to be sure.

 

[GBov]

Sorry, I wasn't clear I guess as they are NOT Charlies, they just don't have as much color as their parents.

From the back the doe looks like a solid castor and the buck had LOTS of color - about 70 30 - so I expected the kits to have more color than white while in actual fact they are about 50 50, not counting the solid black.

Still no way to post pictures so I cant show you :roll: but they sure are cute.

Why does the rex color matching site say breed broken to broken if its not recommended? And how many bucks does one rabbitry have to keep with this color and broken to solid breeding then anyway? What with castor to castor, broken to solid, otter to otter and opal to opal, I am starting to have more bucks than does! :lol:

 

[akane]

That's why most concentrate on just a few color groups. I mostly had selfs. You can breed together any blue, black, chocolate and lilac you want. Otter colors can be crossed and I don't see why they can't be bred to a basic self.

If you breed well marked brokens for several generations and then pair 2 well marked brokens you have a higher chance of good brokens because you can see all the modifiers. However, if you keep solids with well marked brokens in their background you have about as much chance for good brokens plus you can use the solids in other projects or sold as show quality. Broken x broken will give you useless charlies and solid x solid might give you some booted that are also useless but if you are wanting those minimally marked brokens then use solids and lightly marked brokens to get rabbits with less white.

 

[Dood]

Sorry, I wasn't clear I guess as they are NOT Charlies, they just don't have as much color as their parents.

How do you know? Did you test breed them to solids to confirm they are not Charlie's?

The term "Charlie" means the rabbit has two copies of the broken gene (English Spot = EN) . If you breed a broken to a broken statistically 25% of the litter should genetically be Charlie's.

Not all Charlie's are more than 70% white, some can look like a typical broken with only one English spot gene. If you breed a broken to a broken and NEVER get a solid then one of the parents is secretly a heavily marked charlie

It sounds like the doe is a "booted broken" and the buck is a very heavily coloured broken and IMHO this would be a perfect recipe for heavily coloured Charlie's

__________ Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:10 pm __________

I would recommend breeding your booted broken doe to a solid with booted brokens in his pedigree and see if that combination gets the pattern you prefer.

__________ Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:20 pm __________

Another possibility is the Vienna gene it seems that combining broken to Vienna marked or carrier rabbits creates false Charlie's :shrug:

 

[Sagebrush]

Another possibility is the Vienna gene it seems that combining broken to Vienna marked or carrier rabbits creates false Charlie's :shrug:

I can attest to that right there. I had my Broken Black Rex decide to breed with my Blue Dutch buck Cienna and well this is the result. I only got 3 that look to be solid but upon closer inspection I got booted kits.

 

[GBov]

So something as simple as a Charlie can be incredible complicated, just like all the other color stuff! :lol:

I thought a Charlie was a white rabbit with just a bit of color, perhaps around the eyes or ears but seems I am wrong again. Good thing I got another camera cable so I can try to post some pictures. I cant post the buck as he died last month but the doe and kits I can do.

Well, maybe I can, we shall see. <br /><br /> __________ Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:04 pm __________ <br /><br /> Camera cable I bought doesn't work :evil: so no pictures still.

 

[skysthelimit]

Why does the rex color matching site say breed broken to broken if its not recommended? And how many bucks does one rabbitry have to keep with this color and broken to solid breeding then anyway? What with castor to castor, broken to solid, otter to otter and opal to opal, I am starting to have more bucks than does! :lol:

Dood is right, Charlie is genetic terms, and phenotype, but the Charlie could have enough color so it looks likely patterned, and still genetically be a Charlie, or a broken could be so lightly patterned, look like a Charlie but not be one because it's not from two broken parents.

I'm not sure what color matching site you are using, but I know there is a big debate on the Rabbit Genetics group about brokens. Most people I know have not had any problem breeding broken to broken, myself included, but there is always the possibility, so some will tell you not to do it, and some will say otherwise. My average is two charlies out of a litter of 11, 12 and 12. No solids at all.

Then there are modifiers at play. At this point, I don't have any broken bucks, just does, so all my pairings are solid to broken. I get heavily patterned brokens, like ink blots, but they are well within the standard of 50%, or at least no one had every called me on it. It's been like that with this herd for years, the original breeder never bred broken to broken. You want a solid with brokens in the ped to keep from getting too heavily marked buns. Booted is also a modifier...you can breed solid to broken for a long time and never get booted, if you don't have that modifier in your herd. Booted sticks with you, it's tags along and it will show up again and again. Keep the booted out of the solids, and tell people, because many show people cull booted out of their herds. It always seems to strike the kit with the best type

You do not need to have a pairing of colors. All colors are compatible except shaded, Chin and non extensions like Red. All 4 self colors are acceptable as base colors in all Agoutis and Otters.

I only had 2 herd sires (not counting the shaded), a Castor, which I bred to Castors, Selfs and Otters, and a Chin for the chins. He's going Sat. Now I have a Black, which I can breed to everything in the barn, including the Chins and the shaded buns, because he doesn't carry dilute or chocolate.