Who fathered surprise litter..??

[irisshiller]

Hello all!

This is my first post here, I signed up so I could ask you all some information about a surprise litter I found a few days ago!

I run a small private pet zoo, with up until recently 3 bunnies. Two of them are an adopted male and female of around 7 months old. Those two are so firmly bonded that I couldn't separate them. I decided to let them have one litter and then sterilise the male. I have plenty of space to keep all the bunnies resulting from this.

However... I have had them for about 2 months now and there has been no sign of any activity. I am kind of suprised, but never mind!

I also have a small rescued, white and black female and I have had a friend's male lop-eared bunny as a guest for a while. At some point, a mix-up occurred and the small female has had access to both males. As a result, a month later I found a surprise litter of 3 little baby bunnies in her cage! <3

Now... I have no idea who the father of those babies is. The 7 month old male looks like a white New Zealand with red eyes, the other male is older and is brown (tortoiseshell?) and lop-eared. The babies are two browns and one white. At first, I assumed it must be the lop-ear, because the white male seems so inactive and two of the babies are brown... but after doing some research I understand that REW rabbits have all sorts of coloured genes that can come out in their offspring.

I am totally confused now! Can anyone shed some light on this? I will attach pictures of all the bunnies. I would also be glad to know what you call each colour.

Thanks! :bunnyhop:

 

[Dood]

It is really too soon to properly identify the kits colours but it looks like the dark one is a sable marten, the light one could be a dark sable point or a light tort and the white one is too soon to tell but will be broken (white plus some colour)

I believe the mother is not black and white but a sable marten and white (AKA broken sable marten) and I think the lop eared buck is a also a sable and not a tort (the other females is definitely a black tortoiseshell - "tort" for short) but it's difficult to tell due to the molting and sun bleaching in his coat.

At this point either buck could be the parent but if the light kit turns out to be a dark sable point then the lop is more likely the sire.

You also mention that the REW hasn't fathered any kits with the female he's bonded with - have you checked to see if he is neutered? Since it is less invasive and cheaper to fix males, in most bonded pairs they are the ones who are sterilized.

 

[irisshiller]

I see! Is that because of the lighter inside of the ears and the brownish spots on her back? The buck was indeed going through a molt at the time of the picture, but he doesn't look much different now, still very mottled.

The REW isn't neutered - he looks very much intact, also, the girl I got them from looked shocked when I mentioned neutering - she said she couldn't do it because of her religion - whatever that is supposed to mean! I live in Israel and sterilising rabbits is something not many people have even heard of, I don't know anyone who has done it. I am still looking for a vet who will do it. :/

Also, will they show any 'lopping' to the ears as they get older? I thought I might be able to tell that way.

Thanks!

 

[Dood]

Yes, if they lop then the lop is likely the sire but often lop cross kits have upright ears and would be no guarantee the REW is the father.

It's also possible that both bucks fathered kits in the litter

 

[irisshiller]

Goodness!! I hadn't thought of that! Well I suppose I will never really know for sure!
Anyway thanks for your answers! I will post some more pictures when the kits have grown a bit!

 

[Miss M]

:lol: Well, whoever the culprit is, the kits are cute!

 

[SA Farm]

:welcome: Congratulations on the cute babies

 

[irisshiller]

I agree, they are the cutest things ever! thank you! <br /><br /> __________ Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:16 am __________ <br /><br /> Hi everyone... just an update...

The brown (tortoiseshell) doe has now also given birth, so it looks like the white male is active
She had 5 babies and only one of them is white, the others have black skin, some with white markings. I was really excited and very interested to see how they would turn out! The other 3 were growing to be really beautiful, too.

Unfortunately, this morning, I found that apparently, some animal has gone inside the cage and took many of the babies. The first 3 babies, that would now be a week old, are all missing. Of the second nest, only 3 remain. I am so upset! They have just disappeared without a trace. No blood, nothing. We think it might have been a cat...

I'm attaching some pictures anyway just to see how they might have turned out...
Anyway there are 3 left and we are going to be closing the cage hermetically so no cat can get inside again.
I am a bit worried now about the first mummy, who has no babies left... is she going to have problems with mastitis? I have had it myself and it is absolute agony :/

Anyway I'd be happy for any advice on how to deal with this...

 

[Miss M]

You can let the babies you have left nurse from both. I did that with a doe who lost her litter. I had another doe with a litter, and I put them with the other doe once a day for a little bit so she could feed them. After a while, I spaced it out to two days, then three, to help her dry up without getting mastitis.

I don't know the housing situation for your rabbits. If they are inside, and you have cats, then that would seem the natural conclusion. It's even possible that you have a cat that wants to be a mama, and has squirreled the bunnies away in a nest of her own. In which case, you would need to pay attention to the comings and goings of the cats, to try to find them. This occurred to me because you seem to have lost so many bunnies quickly, with no blood.

If the bunnies are outside, small snakes can enter cages and cause bloodless losses like that, if you have the standard 1"x2" cage wire.

 

[irisshiller]

Thanks... I hadn't thought of snakes, it's a possibility. My bunnies are outside in large cages level with the ground. There is a part at the top that is open and I have seen stray (feral) cats around - they have taken my hamsters before, and it was exactly the same: all hamsters gone without a trace. The hamsters were in a glass cage so snakes couldn't have gone in, but a cat managed to open the top.

Anyway, we have now closed up the open part at the top (the chickens liked to roost there - guess they have to find another place now!) and I really hope the cat won't be able to take the rest of the babies. It was very strange and scary to find them all missing like that. The does seem OK, they didn't seem very stressed. I have had a rabbit killed by a dog before and his mate was so traumatised that she died over the next few day - her body just shut down.

I'm glad to hear the kitless doe can nurse the others if she's uncomfortable. I will leave her in the cage for now and remove her after a few days, then maybe put her back now and then as you suggested.

Even if it wasn't a planned litter, I'm still really upset... you can't help but fall in love with those tiny little creatures!

 

[bantambunnies]

Sorry about the missing bunnies...

I believe the REW buck must have sired at least part of the first litter. The bunny with just the few light spots on it had a pattern called "Charlie" (basically, it means it has too little color on it to be a normal "broken"). As far as I know, you can't get charlies from crossing broken to solid. So (and correct me if I'm wrong) that probably means that the REW buck is a broken color underneath and was at least one of the fathers.

And BTW, your tort doe is what's called a Vienna marked (see the white spots on her nose and feet?) which means that she carries the Blue Eyed White (BEW) gene. You can see that she passed the Vienna gene on to some of her babies. (Like the white stripe on the face of one of the babies.)

They're all very cute!

 

[irisshiller]

Hi BantamBunnies,

Sorry I saw your reply only now, but I wanted to say thank you for your information! I have been wondering about Charlies and Vienna and all kinds of other things that were kind of hard to see for me!
These first two litters were both taken in the night - the cat or whatever it was came back for the rest and somehow got in. We were very sad about it. We have since blocked off every hole where any kind of animal could have gone in. The good news is it seems to be working

We have placed both does back with the REW buck and they both immediately got pregnant again and have given birth again now. After I had done it, I started to worry that I might have made a mistake putting the small doe with the big NZ buck - I thought the babies might be too big for her. But she is the one who is doing a terrific job. She had 3 babies again, this time 2 charlies and a grey one. They are now 12 days old and thriving.

The tortoise NZ doe had 6 babies about week later. I see now what you mean about the Vienna gene showing - some of the babies are dark and have 'Dutch -like' markings on the face and the body. Others are pink all over. Unfortunately, this litter does not seem to be doing so well. After 3 days, I saw 3 of the babies were very thin and felt cool. I tried turning the doe on her back and letting the babies feed from her. 2 of them seemed to do well, the last one was so weak that he wouldn't latch on. I tried several times with both does, but it just didn't work. This baby died in the night.

They are now 5 days old. The whole litter does not seem to be as plump and happy as the others were at this age. I noticed today another one who felt cool and looked skinny and again tried to let it feed from the mothers, but he was very weak and the does did not cooperate for very long. In the end, I found a baby bunny formula recipe on the internet (based on concentrated milk) and tried feeding him with that. That worked! He was feeding frantically and at some point peed on my hand. I really hope that was a good sign! I put him in my bra to warm him up and I felt him rooting around there all the time.

I gave all of them a few drops of the stuff and they all seemed to be very eager. The thin baby looked a bit better and felt warmer, so I put them all back in the nest. Now I'm just going to hope for the best.

The bucks have now been safely separated since before the birth of the babies, so no more litters. I feel like I have been taking on a bit more than I should have. I would be very happy for advice about supplementing baby bunnies, making sure the mom takes care of them, etc...

 

[Dood]

Do the does share a cage? If so then they might both be feeding the larger litter and ignoring the younger kits.

You can put all the kits into one nest and temporarily pull out the 3 with the biggest bellies for 24 hours so the skinny ones get some milk. Then pull out the next 3 with the biggest bellies for 24 hours and repeat until all the kits are doing well.

You must make a seperate nest of at least 3 so they can keep each other warm.

Don't take out the largest kits but the ones with the most food in their stomachs, even if they skip a meal they should still have some milk in their tummies.

 

[irisshiller]

Hi Dood, thanks for the advice... they do indeed share a cage, I hadn't thought they might be sharing the feeding of the first litter and neglecting the second. The two kits I tried to hand-feed yesterday died during the night, too. Now there are two left, but surprisingly, those two look good. I also saw the doe feeding them this evening and she feels different today, her nipples are much more swollen. Could it be that her milk was very late to come in and only the very strongest ones managed to get enough to eat?

Anyway it looks now as if they are going to have 5 kits between them :/ I will try to post some pictures from my phone.

Another question that I have about colours..! The whole genetics thing is kind of fascinating to me!
I gained another few rescue rabbits that are I think lionheads. One is a red-eyd male, the other a female of a colour that I've never seen before, it looks sort of stripey brown/grey. I thought that was very interesting. The other female is a blue-eyed white and she's gorgeous. Her people were going to 'release her into nature' - so glad I got her instead, she wouldn't have lasted a day.

So if I got this right, the white lionhead doe has a double dose of the blue-eyed white gene and the tortoise NZ doe has a single one, so she only has a couple of white spots? And some of her kits seem to have inherited the gene from her? If the BEW doe and the REW buck had babies (theoretically!!), what would the kits look like? Also, what would you call the colour of the stripey doe? She and the buck came from an old lady who has about a thousand lionheads in her garden - she says they keep breeding and she doesn't know how to stop them

I will post pictures. Thanks!!

 

[Dood]

Blue eyed white and red eyed white are completey different colours so breeding a BEW to a REW usually results in chestnuts, steels or blacks that will all carry the BEW gene (called "Vienna carriers" or "Vienna marked" if they have white spots or areas) and the REW gene.

The brindled one sounds like it might be a harlequin or harlequinized chestnut - pictures needed.

 

[irisshiller]

Sorry took a bit of time to download the pictures from my phone... here they are! <br /><br /> __________ Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:38 pm __________ <br /><br /> Some more

 

[Dood]

The striped one is a harlequin

The REW is actually a himilayan as he has darker fur on his nose, ears, feet and tail

That grey kit is GORGEOUS!!! And I believe a shaded agouti, or s/he may be sallander with the tan gene causing the white eye rings

 

[irisshiller]

A harlequin? *runs to Google*
That's interesting about the REW lionhead, I thought his ears and nose were just dirty!
Yeah I also love the grey kit, last time there were two of them... they are beautiful! I also love the Charlies actually.

Thanks for all your help! :bunnyhop: