Where to learn rabbit genetics

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KelleyBee

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I'm new to rabbitry. I have a trio of silver foxes with pedigrees showing all silver foxes, blues and blacks, going back 5 generations. I also have a mutt trio made up of New Zealand/ California mix. Forgive me for experimenting, but out of curiosity I bred my albino looking NZ/C doe with my black silver fox buck. She had a litter of 4, two are black and the other two are shown below. They look so cute to me I can barely keep my hands off of them. Because they are brown, my curiosity is further heightened about rabbir genetics. Everything I find on the web is just not what I am seeking. It's either too elementary or too far above my current understanding that it does little for me. Can you recommend a course or a well written and researched book from which I can learn why I have 2 brown rabbits from a black and albino and how I can continue to learn and discover what's hiding behind the colors of my bun? This all is becoming fascinating to me and something I am certain I will enjoy learning and exploring. What book(s) or courses do you recommend?
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You can look for Rabbit Genetic Books on Amazon. I might be getting one for Netherland Dwarfs on christmas.
 
You can look for Rabbit Genetic Books on Amazon. I might be getting one for Netherland Dwarfs on christmas.
I just took a peek at your YouTube channel. I see you're using those stacked cages. How do they work keeping urine contained? I am considering getting some to use as grow-out cages for litters and am wondering how they perform. PS-I subscribed! :)
 
I just took a peek at your YouTube channel. I see you're using those stacked cages. How do they work keeping urine contained? I am considering getting some to use as grow-out cages for litters and am wondering how they perform. PS-I subscribed! :)
Thanks for checking it out! The urine goes down through the holes in the wire-bottom cage and fall into a tray that slides in and out, which is filled with litter. (Thanks for subscribing! What's you're channel? I can make a small video of showing the cages)
 
I will dig thru my bookmarks for info, but I can easily explain why your black and albino gave you brown.

First there are 2 main kinds of hair color patterns: hairs that are the same consistent color from tip to end, and hairs that are banded in colors. That is controlled by one gene, the Agouti gene. It is abbreviated as A for the dominant (banded) version, and a for the recessive non-banded version. Each rabbit has 2 copies of each allele (one from mom, one from dad), so the options are AA, Aa, or aa. The aa version will always show as a non-banded hair, the AA and Aa will always show as a banded hair. Wild rabbits and your brown babies are both showing an agouti or banded type hair, but it seems to have a lot of names in purebred rabbit circles, castor, marten, etc. A solid black rabbit is always aa, or non-banded.

An albino rabbit is a joker and the joker is wild--I will get to that in a minute.

There are two main pigments in rabbits, red and black. All the colors we see are combinations of (or lack of) those two. The gene for black is usually coded as B (dominant and black) or b (recessive and...not black... usually expressed as chocolate brown--not the color your babies are). Your black rabbit must therefor be aa BB or aa Bb, but given that dad's ancestors are black or some kind of black variation going back 5 generations, we can assume for the sake of simplicity that he is aa BB.

The color factors for red are slightly more complicated, but in this case we don't really have to go into that.

Finally let's get back to albino. I said it is like a Joker, but in a way it is also like an ace. It is both the high and the low card depending on how you look at it.

My metaphore is breaking down, so I will just get to the third gene we need to talk about--the "Color" gene, which is coded as C for dominant, full color expression, and c for recessive, albino. This is also a gene that controls both the chinchilla coat pattern and the "pointed" pattern of a Californian, but we are going to ignore that for now.

CC or Cc would be a rabbit expressing all the color it's OTHER genes dictate, and cc would be a rabbit expressing NONE of the colors its other genes have. This is like an on/off switch, and if it is off, it does not matter what complicated genes the rest of the colors have, the rabbit will be albino, or a red eyed white.

So this is what I assume.
Your black rabbit is aa (non-banded) BB (black) and CC (all colors showing).

Your albino is only showing us cc (albino) so would be ?? ?? for the other two genes.

Your brown babies are A? (showing banded) B? (showing black) C? (showing color), meaning anything can be in the second position and you still get the wild brown rabbit color.

Given mom and dad though, we can fill in the gap for two of those. They have to be Aa (banded, but carrying non-banded from dad) and Cc (showing color, but carrying albino from mom). We do not know what mom's Black gene is, so they remain B?.

In a feat of reverse engineering, we can also know now that mom has to have at least one copy of A, or you could not have gotten wild agouti colored babies, because dad could not have contributed that. So her genotype is A? ?? cc.
 
I used to consider myself capable of learning. Until I started looking at rabbit genetics. It doesn't help that different breeds use different words to describe the same thing.

One thing that seems consistent: people that write about genetics seem to think we already understand some of it. Or, they quickly branch off into exceptions. i.e. "the rabbit will be solid black, unless....." and away they go.
 
First there are 2 main kinds of hair color patterns: hairs that are the same consistent color from tip to end, and hairs that are banded in colors. That is controlled by one gene, the Agouti gene. It is abbreviated as A for the dominant (banded) version, and a for the recessive non-banded version. Each rabbit has 2 copies of each allele (one from mom, one from dad), so the options are AA, Aa, or aa. The aa version will always show as a non-banded hair, the AA and Aa will always show as a banded hair. Wild rabbits and your brown babies are both showing an agouti or banded type hair, but it seems to have a lot of names in purebred rabbit circles, castor, marten, etc. A solid black rabbit is always aa, or non-banded.

eco2pia, I will say this is the best explanation of A (Agouti) that I've read. Thanks!
 
I used to consider myself capable of learning. Until I started looking at rabbit genetics. It doesn't help that different breeds use different words to describe the same thing.

One thing that seems consistent: people that write about genetics seem to think we already understand some of it. Or, they quickly branch off into exceptions. i.e. "the rabbit will be solid black, unless....." and away they go.
Lol, I probably did. It is hard to gauge your audience online. The bonus is that if you ask questions, I am happy to break it down further, and explain anything that is confusing. I really don't mind, all those genetics classes might as well be good for something.
 
She had a litter of 4, two are black and the other two are shown below
In a feat of reverse engineering, we can also know now that mom has to have at least one copy of A, or you could not have gotten wild agouti colored babies, because dad could not have contributed that. So her genotype is A? ?? cc.
Oh! Oh! Oh! if you got black babies, then we know mom also has one a gene!! So she is Aa ?? cc. Half her babies are getting her big A and half are getting her little a!

I like puzzles, what can I say.
 
I will dig thru my bookmarks for info, but I can easily explain why your black and albino gave you brown.

First there are 2 main kinds of hair color patterns: hairs that are the same consistent color from tip to end, and hairs that are banded in colors. That is controlled by one gene, the Agouti gene. It is abbreviated as A for the dominant (banded) version, and a for the recessive non-banded version. Each rabbit has 2 copies of each allele (one from mom, one from dad), so the options are AA, Aa, or aa. The aa version will always show as a non-banded hair, the AA and Aa will always show as a banded hair. Wild rabbits and your brown babies are both showing an agouti or banded type hair, but it seems to have a lot of names in purebred rabbit circles, castor, marten, etc. A solid black rabbit is always aa, or non-banded.

An albino rabbit is a joker and the joker is wild--I will get to that in a minute.

There are two main pigments in rabbits, red and black. All the colors we see are combinations of (or lack of) those two. The gene for black is usually coded as B (dominant and black) or b (recessive and...not black... usually expressed as chocolate brown--not the color your babies are). Your black rabbit must therefor be aa BB or aa Bb, but given that dad's ancestors are black or some kind of black variation going back 5 generations, we can assume for the sake of simplicity that he is aa BB.

The color factors for red are slightly more complicated, but in this case we don't really have to go into that.

Finally let's get back to albino. I said it is like a Joker, but in a way it is also like an ace. It is both the high and the low card depending on how you look at it.

My metaphore is breaking down, so I will just get to the third gene we need to talk about--the "Color" gene, which is coded as C for dominant, full color expression, and c for recessive, albino. This is also a gene that controls both the chinchilla coat pattern and the "pointed" pattern of a Californian, but we are going to ignore that for now.

CC or Cc would be a rabbit expressing all the color it's OTHER genes dictate, and cc would be a rabbit expressing NONE of the colors its other genes have. This is like an on/off switch, and if it is off, it does not matter what complicated genes the rest of the colors have, the rabbit will be albino, or a red eyed white.

So this is what I assume.
Your black rabbit is aa (non-banded) BB (black) and CC (all colors showing).

Your albino is only showing us cc (albino) so would be ?? ?? for the other two genes.

Your brown babies are A? (showing banded) B? (showing black) C? (showing color), meaning anything can be in the second position and you still get the wild brown rabbit color.

Given mom and dad though, we can fill in the gap for two of those. They have to be Aa (banded, but carrying non-banded from dad) and Cc (showing color, but carrying albino from mom). We do not know what mom's Black gene is, so they remain B?.

In a feat of reverse engineering, we can also know now that mom has to have at least one copy of A, or you could not have gotten wild agouti colored babies, because dad could not have contributed that. So her genotype is A? ?? cc.
Wow! This is what I want to be able to do! That's awesome. Thank you!
 
Oh! Oh! Oh! if you got black babies, then we know mom also has one a gene!! So she is Aa ?? cc. Half her babies are getting her big A and half are getting her little a!

I like puzzles, what can I say.
Yes, 2 babies are black. 2 are the browns. The browns hairs are Grey (actually look blue) st the skin. It's fascinating and so confusing all at once.
 
So, I have been wondering if plain old genetics would teach me what I want to know or if I'd be better off focusing just on rabbit genetics.
I would focus on rabbit genetics--I found most of my rabbit genetics online for free. You need the most basic understanding of mendelian genetics for most rabbit color genetics. There are cases of straight dominant and recessive genes like the B gene and then there are cases of incomplete dominance (A and C genes) and then poorly understood "red factors" that just need more study.

In my real life my degree is in molecular biology which basically means the chemistry and mechanics of DNA, genetics, and inheritance, though I am now working in immunology. I know a bit more about genetics than any reasonable human should want or need to know. You do NOT need to be an actual scientist to understand rabbit coat colors. But stuff like this is the fun gateway that leads many of us onward to advanced degrees. :)

I will try to find a list of resources to get you started and drop them here. I am good at finding them because I know the search terms that get the technical stuff, not just the show rabbit "what color is this kit" photos. Read a few of them and you will be able to chase down any further info you need just by mimicking their vocabulary.
 
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