When can you tell black steel from black self?

[WhWRabbitry]

I am totally new to steels and thus very ignorant on the subject.
We just had a litter of Mini Lops. The Mom is broken black gold tipped steel and the buck Chestnut.

How old are the kits usually before you can tell if they are black self or black steel?
Is it obvious? Same answer I assume for the broken ones on if they are steel or not.

Here is the litter. I assume the two that have pink in ears and pink bellies are chestnuts.
The other two dark have dark tummies and ears.

 

[Dood]

You cannot always tell.

Some steels look exactly like self blacks and only test breeding to a non extension colour like fawn or tort or sablepoint can prove them out

In cases where that don't look like self black the nape of the neck usually goes brown first

 

[LopLover]

You could be like me and get "blacks" popping up in the nest box. Back of the neck doesn't always turn, you think you've got a black, then low and behold the faintest amount of ticking shows up. Self steels are the ban of my existence. Give the kits about a week to determine color.

 

[Zass]

This page has some good pics of steel markings on kits.
agouti-colored-meat-rabbits-with-sf-coat-project-progress-t22111-15.html

And a couple more pics of black and chocolate.
[album]2518[/album][album]2516[/album]

I could find more pics of black based steels, if you wanted to see. But sometimes, my kits have taken more than 8 weeks to show me any ticking at all, and sometimes, they never show ticking. In the case of those two chocolate kits I have pictured above , both are genetic agouti steels. (determined through test breeding) The self looking kit never showed ticking.

__________ Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:34 pm __________

In your litter, going by the ears, I think I'm seeing 4 chestnuts. Lets hope the other two (the second and 5th kit) are visual steels.

 

[DBA]

Mine are 9 or 10 days old today, I can tell the self black from the black steels. I suspect I could have noticed the difference a few days ago.

 

[Zass]

Mine are 9 or 10 days old today, I can tell the self black from the black steels. I suspect I could have noticed the difference a few days ago.

Some steels wait until they are older (8-12 weeks.) to show any hint of ticking, and some never bother to show it at all.
Ese steels really like to show their ticking later, when they show any.
And super steel (EsEs) being the one and only requirement for producing hidden(self-looking) steel is a complete myth.

The truth is, the only fool-proof way to tell if your blacks out of a steel are genetically self (aa) is to test breed with an agouti who doesn't carry self....

It's nice when steels reveal themselves early, but you can't count on it.

 

[Zinnia]

When I know I'm questioning Steels in a litter, I resign to assuming all the solid colors may be Steel (Steel until proven Self). I bought two Self Solid rabbits for breeding stock, only to discover that one was Agouti Steel and the other Self Steel. There was no way of knowing until I revealed them through test breeding. Zass taught me how to see some Steels that are at first solid, and turn Agouti Steel in the nest box (thank you Zass!). But, of course some Steels never show their "true colors".

 

[WhWRabbitry]

Wow... thanks to all for the replies!! I didn't know steels were so tricky!
DBA - if you don't mind I'd enjoy seeing a photo of one of your steels next to the self.

 

[LopLover]

:twisted:

Mine are 9 or 10 days old today, I can tell the self black from the black steels. I suspect I could have noticed the difference a few days ago.

Hehehe. Yeah. Just wait till that "black" gets the faintest amount of ticking behind the head. I have a sister to Belle that is a "black". I was so excited until the little bit of ticking showed up behind her head.

 

[WhWRabbitry]

It seems like steel is being looked at as a negative. Why is that?

 

[Dood]

Because it can fool you into thinking your agouti is a self and crossing agouti and self rabbits is a big no no if you want to show

Also very few breeds accept steel as a showable colour

 

[Zass]

Because it can fool you into thinking your agouti is a self and crossing agouti and self rabbits is a big no no if you want to show

Also very few breeds accept steel as a showable colour

People generally do not like to suddenly discover that their "self" colored rabbits are actually masked agouti steels, because they will not breed like a self. I know of at least one person who bred two PEDIGREED black silverfox rabbits, and had a visible steel kits show up in the nestbox. :shock: For a breed that comes in only self colors...having blacks that aren't actually black in the gene pool is rather alarming!

With mini lops, it isn't anywhere near as much of a problem, since steels are show able and there isn't as much emphasis on color as there is with some other breeds.

 

[WhWRabbitry]

People generally do not like to suddenly discover that their "self" colored rabbits are actually masked agouti steels, because they will not breed like a self. I know of at least one person who bred two PEDIGREED black silverfox rabbits, and had a visible steel kits show up in the nestbox. :shock: For a breed that comes in only self colors...having blacks that aren't actually black in the gene pool is rather alarming!

With mini lops, it isn't anywhere near as much of a problem, since steels are show able and there isn't as much emphasis on color as there is with some other breeds.

Ah! Thank you Zass. I did not realize steels weren't showable in many other breeds. Thankful I'm breeding Mini Lops!

 

[Susie570]

How old are the kits usually before you can tell if they are black self or black steel?

When they have a litter. <br /><br /> __________ Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:28 am __________ <br /><br /> Btw, I have a true self black doe in my litter, but I suppose she would only be useful for a pet breeder since she's a mutt (mini lop x harlequin dutch).

 

[Dood]

Actually I think that black kit is a self chinchilla

Blue grey eyes, smokey under coat :hmm:

 

[Susie570]

Actually I think that black kit is a self chinchilla

Blue grey eyes, smokey under coat :hmm:

Mine?