when and how do you intervene with kits?

[Rainey]

I'm trying to understand the range of what others do around kindling and kits. Last year we were very hands off. This year with first time does and cold temps when the first one kindled, we lost a litter and then brought the nest box in for the next one, just taking it out for feeding morning and evening the first week. Yesterday we had our first large litter--11 live kits--and are wondering if all will be fed. So I have some things I'd like to know from those of you with more experience.

Do you take the nest boxes out? under what circumstances? until the kits are how old?

Do you check kits to see if they are being fed? how often?

When you see that some kits are less full than others do you wait and see? take some of the better fed kits out of the box for a feeding to let the less fed catch up? supplement ? foster? cull?

What is your purpose for raising rabbits? (added this after reading response from Macksmom--should have thought of it before because it does affect our other choices)

I've read that the does only feed the kits twice a day. Does that mean that If we took the nest box out to the doe with just the smaller/less fed kits for a feeding and then put the others in after a short time, would she get back in and nurse them again or once she's been into the box and fed whoever is in the nest is she done for the next 12 hours? That seems like such a silly question I'm embarrassed to ask it, but I want to understand so I can decide what is best to do and it's so hard to see what they're doing since they wait until we've gone :? There's so much to learn, and each question answered seems to raise another question--or two or three

 

[macksmom98]

I don't have a lot to add other than it will matter how valuable your rabbits are to you. I know for us an extra live baby (due to intervention) is another $50, and helps right now with expenses. It pays for some more feed and other things to help with the cost of having pet rabbits. I ma going thru a recent separation and my soon to be ex was fired from his job, so a little extra work is worth it to me right now.
Others will have their own opinions and if litters are large it may not be as necessary. I just have the time and need the money so I would tend to do whatever was needed to prevent loss.

 

[Dood]

I cull down to 8 kits as I'd rather breed the doe back sooner than have her feed more kits for a longer period of time.

If you want to try and keep all 11 I would pull out the 5 with the biggest bellies each morning and keep
them in a separate nestbox - secure from predators and from which they cannot escape - next morning pull out the next 5 with the biggest bellies of milk and so on until weaning

This is what I normally did with my mice colonies since pinkies and hoppers were my main focus and females did not need to nurse very long so I could breed back sooner regardless

 

[Homer]

Rainy, I've had very good success putting large litters on 12 hour shifts. I would take the 5 smallest in one box and the 6 larger in another, both in their own spaces. (I just put the boxes in carriers)

Feed the 5 tonight for a bit and 12 hours latter the other 6. It may take the Doe a day or two but she should be fine. I do this until they just start eating on their own then start putting plenty of Old Fashioned oatmeal and plenty of hey in for them. Usually the Doe will start weaning pretty fast herself once she gets mobbed. around 3-1/2 to 4 weeks.

 

[Marinea]

I've got two litters right now of 12 and 11 kits. They are just over two weeks old. I did nothing with them but bring the boxes in due to the weather, which I always do in winter for the first two weeks after kindling.

I check kits almost daily, weighing them weekly for the first six weeks.

I have fostered kits before and had success- no losses. The kits were born within a day of each other.

I have done separate feedings before using the "lap" method. I had a very small kit, not a peanut, that just needed a bit of help for a few days. It caught up quickly, and once weaned and eating on its own, was undistinguishable from the other kits. If I had more than one that needed help, I would likely divide the litter and go to once daily feedings, although I really prefer not to do that as I raise meat rabbits and don't want to slow growth rates of the others.

 

[akane]

For the most part it's sink or swim here. I let the new does work it out with some litters being lost sometimes. I don't generally give much help to runts anymore. Just remove the dead bodies. The first year we took does and litters inside when it got to -30F but after that the does that were bred in the cold were the does that can raise kits in the cold. We went from meat mutts, to show quality commercial rabbits, to meat mutts, to small pet breeds, to the current netherlands with pretty good show type but mainly working with unrecognized colors. I will swap kits around and take boxes in and out depending how convenient it is at the time. All I lose if a kit dies is about $20 or 1 dog snack and that doesn't counter the costs to raise them by much. Well fed kits can skip a day of feeding so even if you can only get the doe to feed once a day you can remove the fat kits and leave the smaller ones for a feeding and then put them back and they should not suffer any. Keep in mind temps though. Kits that chill will not feed well and they chill faster without food so in cold weather they will not be as durable to missing out on food.

 

[Truckinguy]

I do as Akane does, I just let Nature have her way. I've found that about eight kits seems to be what it evens out to. I have had litters of 11 and 10 born lately, the litter of 11 ended up as 8 and the litter of 10 is at nine at the moment and the kits all seem fine. My colony is pretty maintenance free unless there is a problem. I keep them clean, fed and watered and let them do what rabbits do.

 

[ladysown]

I breed for a variety of reasons. 95% of my herd gets sold. Of that... 85% For pets 10% for breeders the rest goes out as dog food.

Do you take the nest boxes out? under what circumstances? until the kits are how old?
In the winter only I pull litters of less than four into the house for the night only. they stay into until they are well furred unless we are having a brutally cold stretch.
If I have a nutty doe I pull her box simply to keep the kits safe. those kits are worth $40-50 And I hate losing them to a nutty rabbit. then the doe gets culled at four weeks and the kits fostered to a doe who is sweet and kind. Keeps them from learning nutty behaviour. Description of a nutty doe: A doe displaying protective behaviour beyond three days, and pops in and out of the nestbox with a decided lack of care. I have one right now that attacks the water dish when i put it in and wants to bite me but I'm too smart for that. My lad is super careful around her and has learned a lot about protective bunny behaviour by just watching her. Her kits are almost 10 days old and she still not allowed to keep them with her. I expect I'll cull her early and just foster the kits as soon as I have a mom to do that with.

Do you check kits to see if they are being fed? how often?
Check and hold each kit twice a day.

When you see that some kits are less full than others do you wait and see? take some of the better fed kits out of the box for a feeding to let the less fed catch up? supplement ? foster? cull?
I always breed 2-3 does at a time and i foster left, right and centre, unless I have a nutty rabbit who won't accept kits...but those don't happen often as I cull for nutty behaviour. I cull for health and poor doing kits are still worth $1-3 dollars to the snake people. I won't sell sickly or poor doing kits as pets, it's not fair to the new owners OR to the rabbit.

Does that mean that If we took the nest box out to the doe with just the smaller/less fed kits for a feeding and then put the others in after a short time, would she get back in and nurse them again or once she's been into the box and fed whoever is in the nest is she done for the next 12 hours?
That would be correct. Once she is done a feeding she's done.

 

[Rainey]

Thanks, Ladysown, I appreciate your taking time to answer my questions. Especially the last one about whether once a doe has done a feeding, she's done for the next 12 hours. That has really puzzled me. We've had goats with triplets and then we can give the smallest a chance with the doe first but she'll still let the other two get a guzzle pretty much anytime. So I've wondered how it works with a rabbit having more kits than teats. (I wonder a lot--like why cows have 4 teats and usually a single calf or at the most twins while goats have two teats and may have 3 or 4 kids, although 2 is the norm)
Anyway I'm glad for all the help. And pleased that this year I can even offer some help to newer folks

 

[skysthelimit]

Do you take the nest boxes out? under what circumstances? until the kits are how old?

Do you check kits to see if they are being fed? how often?

When you see that some kits are less full than others do you wait and see? take some of the better fed kits out of the box for a feeding to let the less fed catch up? supplement ? foster? cull?

What is your purpose for raising rabbits? (added this after reading response from Macksmom--should have thought of it before because it does affect our other choices)

I've read that the does only feed the kits twice a day. Does that mean that If we took the nest box out to the doe with just the smaller/less fed kits for a feeding and then put the others in after a short time, would she get back in and nurse them again or once she's been into the box and fed whoever is in the nest is she done for the next 12 hours? That seems like such a silly question I'm embarrassed to ask it, but I want to understand so I can decide what is best to do and it's so hard to see what they're doing since they wait until we've gone :? There's so much to learn, and each question answered seems to raise another question--or two or three

I raise mainly for show and meat. A live baby is more of each, and the litters are very valuable to me. They have to earn their keep. Any litter I lost this winter set me back months, and cost $$$.

I do pull my nest boxes, from birth till eyes open, and sometimes a bit longer, once the temps go down to freezing until mid March. I pull them out and it's pretty obvious whether they are fed. If they aren't fed, I give supplements to the doe, not the kits, I haven't found that helps much for me . If everyone else is fine and that kit is failing, the fault is with the kit, and I don't need those genes in my herd. My does don't sync and the two time they did, they all had large litters, and the other didn't end well, I never rely on fostering.

I don't cull my litters down, and I probably should from a show standpoint, but I like litters of 9-12, even if they grow out slower. I doe I sold last year, her dau just had a litter of 14. 14 is a lot from any doe, much less show line Rex. Nearly every doe raises what they kindled, a few seem to cull themselves down to their manageable number. I had one (and looks like I have another) that always kindled 9, but only raised 6.

The box goes in twice, morning/evening. Once she hops out, seems in her mind she's done. If I add a kit it is while she is still in the box.

 

[Rainey]

Rainy, I've had very good success putting large litters on 12 hour shifts. I would take the 5 smallest in one box and the 6 larger in another, both in their own spaces. (I just put the boxes in carriers)

Feed the 5 tonight for a bit and 12 hours latter the other 6. It may take the Doe a day or two but she should be fine. I do this until they just start eating on their own then start putting plenty of Old Fashioned oatmeal and plenty of hey in for them. Usually the Doe will start weaning pretty fast herself once she gets mobbed. around 3-1/2 to 4 weeks.

Does that slow down the growth of the kits much getting fed just once a day?
I wish I understood better whether it is more a matter of how much milk the doe is producing or of competition among the kits so that some get a teat and some don't and then the doe is out of the nest for another 12 hours.
When we checked them tonight we culled one that seemed weak, not as active, even though others are as small.

 

[Zass]

I raise rabbits entirely for meat and fur. Almost no one gets sold here. That will change if I ever see harlis with good show marks, as I'm not big into showing myself, but I would offer them to others who were.

I pull my boxes if it's going to be very cold, because I hate losing kits that get pulled out on the wire and freezer before I can find them. I also never cull any kits unless there is health problem.
I like big litters. Yeah, litters that have more than 10 kits tend to grow a little slower for me than litters of 4 or 5. I wean really late and I've often find my larger litters still make weight. I've had a little 7.5 lb doe get a litter of 9 kits to 5 lbs in 9 weeks. No reason to cull them back in that context.
I think breeders like Dood, who offer a more natural diet, do have to be a little more concerned about the condition of their does than pellet-feeding breeders do. Nursing larger litters of older kits definitely takes more weight off a doe than pregnancy or just nursing younger kits.

Anyone displaying poor health of almost any kind gets euthanized pretty fast though.

I agree with Sky about supplementing the doe instead of the kits. My little harli doe has 9 kits right now. She's awfully petite. I know she's got to be right around 7 lbs...if that. I've been giving her boss and oats on top of her regular free choice pellets and so far, all 9 in her nest have a full belly.
Some does are just more patient about feeding the stragglers than others are.

Does that mean that If we took the nest box out to the doe with just the smaller/less fed kits for a feeding and then put the others in after a short time, would she get back in and nurse them again or once she's been into the box and fed whoever is in the nest is she done for the next 12 hours?

My does tend to nurse once a day when I pull my boxes. Maybe I don't wait long enough to get that second feeding. I've had some whoppers getting fed once a day.
So no, I would say it doesn't slow their growth at all, or harm a doe's milk supply. The kits are just like little milk tanks that can store up to 24 hours worth of fluid.
I tend to breed my does simultaneously and foster as much as necessary. I usually know what the individual doe's capabilities are too.. But, for example, if I have a lot of kits born in two litters. I would give the first doe a box with more kits. Observe them after feeding and plop any kit who didn't get a full belly into the second box to give them a chance at doe #2. That worked out pretty well for me. Of they still didn't have full bellies, I'd hold them under Mucky. Messing around like that, my little meat herd had near 0% infant mortality last year. (Too bad I couldn't say the same of the velveteens.)

As for fostering, I think does are just really really unlikely to refuse to nurse anything when their teats have 24 hours worth of milk in them...and after they feed a kit, it's theirs.

 

[Rainey]

As usual I have a couple follow-up questions

Those who have had does raise larger litters--did you divide the litter for different feedings or did you just leave them all in the nest box? Does taking the nest box out except for feedings affect how long the doe stays in the box to nurse the kits?

Zass mentioned natural feed as a factor in the doe's milk production. Has anyone who is not feeding pellets had does raise large litters? (Alna, the doe that had the litter of 11 last Thursday is leaving the BOSS in her feeder and didn't eat fodder the last times we fed it. She shows most interest in green forage and willow branches and does eat some wheat and oats)

Thanks again for the patience shown to persistent questioners.

 

[skysthelimit]

Does that slow down the growth of the kits much getting fed just once a day?
I wish I understood better whether it is more a matter of how much milk the doe is producing or of competition among the kits so that some get a teat and some don't and then the doe is out of the nest for another 12 hours.
When we checked them tonight we culled one that seemed weak, not as active, even though others are as small.

I don't think it does. My feeding schedule is about 12 hours apart, 6 am, 6 pm, and I believe those heavy does feed until they are empty. Not every doe goes into the box every time I put it in. Those seem to be the once a day group. And some are shaking the cage and hop in before I put it down.
I think there is some competition, but when I have does that have large litters, and everyone has a round belly, I know the doe is a heavy milker. I've had a few does (I've since culled) that didn't have enough milk to fill the bellies of 5 kits with no competition. Occasionally when i breed back to back, and a heavy milker only had 6-7, the kits are huge.

 

[Susie570]

FWIW, when I did supplemental feedings for my runty kit, I just did it in the middle of the day with the doe on my lap.
She had plenty of milk to let the little bun fill up her belly, more or less. Then I just put the runt back in with the rest of the litter.
So it was less than 12 hrs between her feedings and she had a litter of 9.

 

[Rainey]

I'm confused and unsure what to do next.
They're 5 days old and we tried this morning putting in just 5 of the 10 kits --the ones that looked less fed--for the morning feeding. When we brought the nest box in and checked on them an hour later, they didn't have good round bellies, but they didn't look totally empty either. So midday I tried mixing up the formula, only using our fresh goat milk and molasses. Tried feeding that and got very little into them. All still active and squirmy, furring out, but small. When we checked them last night after the evening feeding--all 10 in the box--one kits was much larger than the others and had a very full belly. That's why we decided to divide them--the gap between biggest and smallest keeps getting bigger.
My son, who has more patience with ailing machinery than with livestock, suggests that it's all this messing with them that is the problem. Last summer we never checked on litters between day one and out of the nest box and they were fine. And I find myself second guessing the decision to cull that doe, had 8 each time we bred her and raised them all. But she was a biter. Now we're breeding 3 of her daughters--better dispositions, not so good on the milk.
My daughter tried checking the 2 does with kits to see what she could tell about their milk. Berwick, with 4 15 day old kits had some teats that seemed fuller than others. Kits very full and not in any hurry to get out of the nest box. Alna, with the 10 5 day olds didn't have any obvious problem. Neither doe liked being flipped and checked.
We're giving Alna parsley and nettle (the latter dried last season) Trying to give her BOSS but she doesn't show much interest in that. Eats all the bramble and willow, both budded but not really leafed out yet, that we give her.
I guess I need to be patient. Eventually we'll know better how many each doe is capable of raising. Until we know that it's hard to cull to bring the litter down to manageable size. I'm glad we had some beginner's luck last year so we didn't give up.

 

[Becky]

If Berwick seems like she has extra milk, maybe you could try putting the smaller five from your big litter in with her for a feeding? Or maybe use her to lap feed them, if you don't normally take her nest box out.

 

[Rainey]

If Berwick seems like she has extra milk, maybe you could try putting the smaller five from your big litter in with her for a feeding? Or maybe use her to lap feed them, if you don't normally take her nest box out.

I thought of that, but we haven't been pulling her nest box for a week or so now and her kits are starting to come out. Don't think they'd suffer from missing a feeding but think she'd notice the switch and don't know how she'd react. I know other people hold the doe for a feeding when they want to get certain kits fed but our does don't get into the nest box while we're present and I don't know what they'd do if we tried to hold them there. Also i'd like to get an idea of how many kits each doe is actually capable of raising. I'm trying to boost Alna's feed but she ignores the BOSS and eats very little of the grain, even tried a little molasses mixed into it today. What she wants is green stuff--parsley, dandelion, kale, willow. And she's eating hay. I'm reluctant to cut back on the greens in hope of her eating the grains & BOSS. She's never been on pellets--I know some think that is the only appropriate feed. It's frustrating that she bred willingly, kindled easily, but then that some of the kits aren't thriving as I'd like to see them and that she won't eat the stuff that should help her make more milk.

 

[Becky]

I wonder if you could sprout some BOSS, and if she'd eat it then.