What's the difference between Amber or Red Rex

[skysthelimit]

I am a bit confused. I looked at a few websites. On the National club page, the amber and the red look the same. An amber should have a blue undercoat, white or tan on the belly covering a blue undercoat.

Reds should have as little shading as possible (meaning that some shading DOES happen). It's a fault to have a white underbelly (so what's with the club picture?) On another site, it says the red is faulted for having a white underbelly, but there's a white underbelly on the club website. It should not have any ear lacing, but it can as a result of castor in the lines.

So I have a kit that is clearly one or the other, has some dark ear lacing, seems to have a blue undercoat, white belly but no blue undercoat on the belly. It seems to have some shading, which is permissible on both.

Is this a red or an amber?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I was confused about that too. Still am, as a matter of fact! Someone will enlighten us, I'm sure.

That sure is a pretty bunny! I'll trade you an opal for one like it.

 

[tm_bunnyloft]

I know what it is...............





Yet one more reason for the Bunny Train to get started.

 

[skysthelimit]

I know what it is...............





Yet one more reason for the Bunny Train to get started.

LOL.<br /><br />__________ Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:48 pm __________<br /><br />

I was confused about that too. Still am, as a matter of fact! Someone will enlighten us, I'm sure.

That sure is a pretty bunny! I'll trade you an opal for one like it.

If I could arrange transport...

 

[caroline]

Well I wish I knew the answer to this one.I'm glad you've asked because I have been meaning to ask too. I think that I will post the ??? on the Yahoo Rabbit genetics forum if we don't get anywhere here.

It should be and "easy" qeustion to answer because genetically amber is A_ bb C_ D_ E_

and red should be A_ __ C_ D_ ee. Since it can be EITHER chocolate based or black based. Apparently, the ones who REALLY know are breeding brown based reds because the show the "smut" less. I think that if your bunnis red the dark edging is called "smut" and considered undesireable. The other thing about RED is that the good ones have the "ww" wide band gene which is what makes the white belly color "disappear" and be "red"

My problem is that I ended up with the "e" non extension gene in the original buck that I bought, who was actually broken black tort, I was so ignorant that I thought he was broken amber. So I used him on everything and now have non-extension all over the place. Soooo... I get a lot of beautiful torts... not showable but I'm continuing on... The second buck that I bought, who REALLY was and amber, ALSO carried that non-extension gene. So, FOR SURE, it's everywhere in my barn. The lady that I got him from told me she had wideband in her lines. She also told me some other stuff that turned out to be inaccurate. So I am soldiering on without her advice these days and STILL trying to figure this whole amber/red/lynx/cream thing out. I know that I haven't had any kits that looked "red" without white bellies but I'm pretty sure that I do have some RED rabbits. The backdoor way to do this and be able to show something, until I can figure out the wide band thing, is to have BROKEN buns. Then they CAN have white bellies. Oh well, it's a good thing I like such variety, cuz I got it!

A

 

[ReiLossefalme]

What is the kit's color genetics? Or what were the parents?

The Red is a black Agouti, with the ee non-extension genes that prevent the expression of black, differentiating it from Castor. A_B_C_D_ee
The Amber is a Chocolate Agouti. A_bbC_D_E_

 

[skysthelimit]

What is the kit's color genetics? Or what were the parents?

The Red is a black Agouti, with the ee non-extension genes that prevent the expression of black, differentiating it from Castor. A_B_C_D_ee
The Amber is a Chocolate Agouti. A_bbC_D_E_

Actually Castor is the black agouti. Red is the non extension, removing the black surface color. I fully understand how each one is created, genotypically, but phenotype is the issue, and how to distinguish what looks from what actually is.

The parents are castor and the same mystery color as the kits. Nothing in the pedigree differentiates getting a red or an amber, both are equally likely because they both can come from castors. With the ee being hidden, it's easy to have no reds in the actual pedigree and still come up with red. There are no chocolates in the pedigree, but the chocolate is his litter mate, from all of the lilacs. So much dilute, easy to get a chocolate agouti.

More importantly, because both can come from castors, the standard is not clear as to what is a real amber, and what is just an incorrect red. I either have an incorrect amber or a sooty red.

__________ Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:02 pm __________

The other thing about RED is that the good ones have the "ww" wide band gene which is what makes the white belly color "disappear" and be "red"

An this is my problem, if it is a red, it should not have a white belly, nor should it be agouti marked. But this one is.

__________ Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:06 pm __________

My problem is that I ended up with the "e" non extension gene in the original buck that I bought, who was actually broken black tort, I was so ignorant that I thought he was broken amber. So I used him on everything and now have non-extension all over the place. Soooo... I get a lot of beautiful torts... not showable but I'm continuing on... The second buck that I bought, who REALLY was and amber, ALSO carried that non-extension gene. So, FOR SURE, it's everywhere in my barn. The lady that I got him from told me she had wideband in her lines. She also told me some other stuff that turned out to be inaccurate. So I am soldiering on without her advice these days and STILL trying to figure this whole amber/red/lynx/cream thing out. I know that I haven't had any kits that looked "red" without white bellies but I'm pretty sure that I do have some RED rabbits. The backdoor way to do this and be able to show something, until I can figure out the wide band thing, is to have BROKEN buns. Then they CAN have white bellies. Oh well, it's a good thing I like such variety, cuz I got it!

And that's where this gets serious. I don't want wide bands messing up my castors. Though I'd love some torts to play with. Also, if it really is an amber, I'm on my way to lynx, faster than I thought. It's true about the brokens, and if it comes to that I will, but the castor line is precious, just got a new doe, so I don't want a mess. If I wait and see, perhaps the kits will develop rings? Or maybe they have them they are just faint.

 

[caroline]

I’m having an “interesting” experience since I began thinking more about the question of the difference between Red Rex and Amber Rex. I suddenly had the [unwelcome] thought that the reason that there have not been ANY chocolate or lilac kits in the litters where there are “Amber,” “Lynx,” black, and blue kits is that those “Amber” and “Lynx” kits really AREN’T. They have actually been “bad” red and cream kits. This thought has is really blowing my mind and given me the opportunity to re-consider what I’m REALLY doing.

I guess that the “good news” is that, regardless of their color, a lot of my rabbits have pretty nice bodies. Most of them are really good sized. As a matter of fact I had to put one of my nicest looking broken “lynx” bucks on a diet before the last show because he weighed ten and a half pounds and I didn’t want the judge to DQ him for being overweight. Most of the litters are good sized, averaging 8 kits and a number of them have been 10-13. Almost all of the rabbits have sweet temperaments, many come over to the cage door when I come in and some will lie right down waiting for me to pet them or scratch their head. The does breed year around and most give me 5-6 litters per year so there is plenty of meat here!

I’m just stunned as I try to wrap my mind around this possibility though. I got back into rabbits this time specifically because I was excited about the BROWN gene and now I have to face the possibility that it MAY be nowhere in my herd

Well when life gives me lemons, I’m glad to say that I LOVE lemon aid. Perhaps if life has given me rabbits with lots of “B” genes, instead of the “b” gene that I was lusting after, I will have to find happiness in learning to love Chin bunnies, since I also got the “chd” and “c” genes without asking for them.

 

[skysthelimit]

So if the Broken Castor and WhatEverThatDoeWas, produced some red looking things and some chocolate kits in the same litter, then there is a good chance that the red looking kits are amber?

This pedigree is full of lilac, every other parent was lilac/blue on the dam's side.

 

[caroline]

So if the Broken Castor and WhatEverThatDoeWas, produced some red looking things and some chocolate kits in the same litter, then there is a good chance that the red looking kits are amber?

This pedigree is full of lilac, every other parent was lilac/blue on the dam's side.

YES...especially if there are NO tort kits & I am happy for you and wish my does would produce chocolate or lilac. Of course the couple of ones that I though were lilac didn't make it...

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

That kit is a chocolate-based red. It does have some smut. Ambers (chcolate agouti) or castors will always have ring colour, reds will not. Reds do have the white/cream belly. Its only Thriantas who are wideband that do not and where it would be a fault/DQ. Red does not get its smut from "castors" as red needs to be agouti in the first place. Smut is inherited through family lines and what modifiers they have.

 

[skysthelimit]

That kit is a chocolate-based red. It does have some smut. Ambers (chcolate agouti) or castors will always have ring colour, reds will not. Reds do have the white/cream belly. Its only Thriantas who are wideband that do not and where it would be a fault/DQ. Red does not get its smut from "castors" as red needs to be agouti in the first place. Smut is inherited through family lines and what modifiers they have.

i question the ring color only because my opal kit did not have ring color until he was 16 weeks. i knew he was opal from the color under his nose and the back of his neck. I was just about to cull him when the ring color began to show up, but only on his flanks.

i guess we will need to see if this kit develops rings.<br /><br />__________ Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:33 pm __________<br /><br />Chocolate ear lacing. And I am starting to see chocolate on the tips of the hair as the coat develops.

 

[AppleRunRabbitry]

I have been breeding Rex for twelve years, and in those years, I have had Ambers and Reds together the whole time.
The easiest way to tell a red from an amber is to check the color of the kits in the first few days. Reds, even chocolate based reds, will appear fawn to orange (or rusty orange for a chocolate red) in the first few days after birth. An amber, on the other hand, will very closely resemble a chocolate otter, and only after a week or so will begin to move that really short hair further from the body, and thus begin developing that orange ring. For the next four to six weeks, these babies will continue to grow that original baby hair our to a very long orange band, as well as a pretty long undercolor band. The tipping at this age is VERY slight, as the tipping is relative to the coat size when the kit was born. a big hint that the animal is not red (or at least not black-based red) is a chocolate-tortish tint on the sides of the four to six week old kit.
As the baby grows from six weeks upward, the new coat will begin to form, coming out with a more distinct tipping and a redder band if it is an amber. If the baby is a red, it will simply molt into a sharper red color, there will not be black tipping. A smutty red at this age will have smut on the lower hindquarters, and very light red undercolor on those smutty areas.
Another strong hint on these guys is the points. A red will have the smut on the ears appearing to be ear lacing, but they VERY rarely will have smut on the tip of their tails. Ambers have a tail that is almost pure chocolate.
As they get older, around four to five months, ambers and reds are quite different. A red, when the fur is blown, will be a red that fades to a lighter red, with maybe a grayish tipping. An amber will be a chocolate tipped, with red that fades to blue undercolor.
Hope this helps, and good luck!
P.S. From the picture, I would say the animal is an amber. The chocolate rabbit next to it kind of makes the camera wash out the chocolate tipping. But based on the heavy chocolate tail, I would assume its amber. Its hard to make a guess unless you're looking directly at the animal and blowing into their fur.

 

[caroline]

I have been breeding Rex for twelve years, and in those years, I have had Ambers and Reds together the whole time.

Welcome to Rabbit talk! So nice to have another Rex breeder join. And one that has both Ambers and Reds

 

[skysthelimit]

Welcome to RabbitTalk.

This is a year old thread, lol. Unfortunately, I no longer have this doe, she never made senior weight.
But I've come a long way with understanding the Amber color, although I have yet to have another rabbit produce the color here (this one was not bred by me. I have all the genetics for it, but so far, have not had the right genes fall into place. I've had nothing but blacks, black Otters, Castors and REWs all year long

 

[Southbound_SF]

I, for one, am glad this thread was resurrected, as I didn't see/read it the first time around. Fascinating, and very enlightening. I've always liked reds, but I'm also glad I only have blue and black and maybe chocolate to contend with in my breed!

Welcome indeed, Apple Run. Good info.


SB

 

[skysthelimit]

Yeah, Red would be a disaster for my herd at this point. The ee gene would mess up everything.