What to do when your ALMOST sure mating was NOT successful?

[ramblingrabbit]

Okay, I've never had quite such a thing happen before. All suggestions, anecdotes, etc., welcome...

I tried to breed yesterday afternoon. It was a bit warm (mid to low 80s), in hindsight maybe I should have waited--I usually like to do early morning matings in summer. Anyway, there was some chasing, some mounting on both sides (my other doe sometimes mounts the buck during successful matings, but that's the first time I've seen this one do it). There was a little bit of thrusting and falling over, twice, but both times it looked like the position wasn't quite right, and once I didn't get a good view to see if there was successful penetration. Buck got overheated and winded after a few minutes, so I separated them. I usually go for 3-4 successful mountings, and since I wasn't sure if we'd had even ONE I decided to retry next morning. (I've done this for a year and a half now, so I'm pretty familiar with what a successful mating looks like, and this just didn't look quite right--let's say I'm about 80% sure there wasn't one.)

So this morning I put her in again, and after probably nearly 45 minutes of messing around, nothing--she was grunting a lot and even humping the buck, but whenever he got behind she seemed to be holding her tail down.

Waited about an hour, and then tried again. Same thing. I even tried a "forced mating" (what an unpleasant term) this time, holding her, and thought the buck jumped on behind almost right away, he did nothing (don't know if the position was right, or what, because I was just going on the written instructions here: http://www.azrabbits.com/useful-informa ... eding.html, so I could have been doing it wrong--but I don't think so).

The doe was weaned a couple weeks ago and had regained a solid healthy weight--all per our normal routine. Doe is still quite young, about a year and half old. Buck about a year older, has performed great up to this point, and he's not fat (he's just big-boned).

So now what? I've always been able to get at least ONE certain covering (though I prefer to see a few), so I've never been in this position. Do we rebreed every day until we witness a definite success? Wait two weeks and attempt rebreeding? Wait two weeks and try to palpate (never done this before, never needed to)? Wait 4 weeks and see if she kindles? If I do rebreed at two weeks, do I still put a nextbox in at 4 weeks, in case she really WAS pregnant, or do I then assume she wasn't? And finally what's up with this stuff about rabbits being able to carry two different litters at one time and having resulting complications--is this a real thing, and if so why do some people recommend rebreeding at around two weeks to check whether a doe is really pregnant? Part of the problem here is that I am leaving the beginning of September to be gone for five weeks, and have to leave my mother in charge of the whole program (she helps take care of the rabbits daily, but I'm usually the one who manages the breeding).

Thanks, folks! :?

 

[SA Farm]

Sounds to me like he was successful during his first couple of fall offs... You could try palpating in a couple weeks or keep trying her, but I've had does kindle after being bred without the buck even falling off before...

 

[hucklekree]

While I do agree that a mating is possible in this situation. I just went through this with our crazy temperature changes. Have you checked the does readiness? If her vulva is dark purple she is ready even dark red. If its pink or whitish shes just not ready. The only reason i say this is because you said she hunkered her tail down.

 

[ladysown]

You didn't turn the doe over to see if it was successful?

I almost always do
If I don't see ejaculate then I assume it didn't work out quite right.
If you do check immediately after you should see signs.

At this point it's hard to say what to do.
I'd be tempted to put them in an outdoor run and just watch them for 1/2 an hour or so. Gives him room so he doesn't overheat and give her room to run circles and get herself more in the mood.

 

[ramblingrabbit]

Thank you all for the responses. I've taken some good notes for the future, and will be taking the visual inspections more seriously and paying more attention. For this case, we've decided to wait a couple of weeks, in the meantime I'll do some research on palpating and see if it seems like something I can manage. Worst case scenario, while I'm gone, I'll have Mom put a nestbox in there in three weeks just in case, and then have her rebred right away if nothing.

One more thing: is it true that a rabbit that's already pregnant can get pregnant again and carry two litters at once due to the shape of the rabbit uterus, resulting in complications? This would seem so counterintuitively maladaptive to me that it sounds like a myth, and it doesn't make sense to me that an animal could ovulate while it was pregnant, and yet I recall hearing things like this from a couple of sources. So, could we safely try to breed her again after two weeks--as I've read in one book--to see if she is pregnant or not (taking into account the possibility that she could still accept mating even while already pregnant from the original mating, of course)? Or would this possibly result in some kind of freakish double pregnancy scenario?

Thanks again for the help!

 

[SA Farm]

I have experienced a doe bred twice in a month and she had two litters about two weeks apart. Apparently it is rare enough that the 'experts' say it cannot happen.
I have not had it happen since and I've been breeding rabbits for a very long time, so - use your own good judgement to decide

 

[ramblingrabbit]

I have experienced a doe bred twice in a month and she had two litters about two weeks apart. Apparently it is rare enough that the 'experts' say it cannot happen.
I have not had it happen since and I've been breeding rabbits for a very long time, so - use your own good judgement to decide

Wow! Okay. And were the doe and the litters okay after all this though? How large were the litters?

My wonder at the amazing rabbit reproductive system is redoubled once again...

 

[akane]

Does are rebred in colony all the time and then by people who try to test out breeding success with no complications I've ever heard of. The theory of double litters is that a rabbit's 2 horned uterus could ovulate and carry a litter in each side. It is argued though that even if that could happen all kits would be born when the rabbit goes in to labor. Then the younger litter may be too young to survive. There are incidences where a rabbit gets stressed or something and delays the birth of the rest of the litter but usually if that goes past a day or 2 the rest of the kits are dead and longer than that the doe has too few if any contractions to get all the remaining kits out.

Usually if the buck falls off only once I try again the next day for at least one more breeding and then I wait. I have had a few breedings where the buck only covered once and the doe had a large litter right on time. I've also had bucks cover 5 times and produce nothing when there wasn't really an explanation why. You never know. If you aren't good at palpating pretty much all you can do is wait.

 

[Zass]

Does are rebred in colony all the time and then by people who try to test out breeding success with no complications I've ever heard of. The theory of double litters is that a rabbit's 2 horned uterus could ovulate and carry a litter in each side. It is argued though that even if that could happen all kits would be born when the rabbit goes in to labor. Then the younger litter may be too young to survive. There are incidences where a rabbit gets stressed or something and delays the birth of the rest of the litter but usually if that goes past a day or 2 the rest of the kits are dead and longer than that the doe has too few if any contractions to get all the remaining kits out.

Usually if the buck falls off only once I try again the next day for at least one more breeding and then I wait. I have had a few breedings where the buck only covered once and the doe had a large litter right on time. I've also had bucks cover 5 times and produce nothing when there wasn't really an explanation why. You never know. If you aren't good at palpating pretty much all you can do is wait.

This is interesting to me Akane. I recently had the misfortune of having to cull a pregnant doe. I found no less than 14 pea-sized embryos present in both horns of her uterus. (previous litters were between 12 and 7 kits, usually 12)

I didn't take the photo I normally would because the rabbit was very special to me, and I was pretty heartbroken over the whole thing.
I did take notice though. They were all the same size and I know that she had only been bred once. Absolutely no possibility of a chance mating complicating things.

 

[akane]

That's one of the arguments against double pregnancy. Rabbits don't, or at least don't always, use just one horn. The kits are spread out so it shouldn't be possible to only pass some. Not very many pregnant does get opened up though so it's all conjecture.