What is this colour called?

[JG3]

So we have Californian, Flemish Giant/NZ cross and New Zealand rabbits. Anytime we have had litters they have always been pure white, pure black, black with Vienna markings, black/grey/brown peppered (unsure if there’s a specific name for this) and Californian colouring. This time in breeding our Californian with the Flemish/NZ cross we got a whole new colour we haven’t seen before and I was wondering what it’s called or what it looks like.
It’s like the ears are darker like a Californian on the outside but white inside, body brown like our Flemish giant (but he’s brown/black peppered), but with white mixed in and it’s whole underside is white. Just trying to figure out how to add photos…

 

[JG3]

Pics

 

[JG3]

I tried to post this on the genetics board but for some reason it wasn’t showing, so plopped it here. If an admin is able to move it, that’s fine.

 

[Alaska Satin]

That looks like a chestnut, aka chestnut agouti. In Flemish Giants the color is called "sandy." I'm not sure what your black/brown/peppered" Flemish is, but if its belly is dark it may be a steel. If you could post a photo of him we might be able to help you with that as well.

An interesting thing about rabbits is that the same color can be called many different names, depending on the breed. For instance, chestnut agouti is also called "chestnut" (many breeds), "sandy" (Flemish Giants), "copper" (Satin and Mini Satin), "castor" (Rex and Mini Rex), "gray" (in Dutch) and "brown" (in the Silver breed).

 

[Captaincatholic]

I cannot wait to find out!

 

[JG3]

That looks like a chestnut, aka chestnut agouti. In Flemish Giants the color is called "sandy." I'm not sure what your black/brown/peppered" Flemish is, but if its belly is dark it may be a steel. If you could post a photo of him we might be able to help you with that as well.

An interesting thing about rabbits is that the same color can be called many different names, depending on the breed. For instance, chestnut agouti is also called "chestnut" (many breeds), "sandy" (Flemish Giants), "copper" (Satin and Mini Satin), "castor" (Rex and Mini Rex), "gray" (in Dutch) and "brown" (in the Silver breed).

Lol! Sorry, Im only a year into this so don’t know the names. here’s a pic of the mom (Californian) and dad (Flemish/NZ cross). By peppered i meant he has all those colours peppered together. The coloured kits with him as the sire, they usually are pure black or with Vienna marks or like him but any of the three colours can be dominate. Like right now we have one more brown, yet all three colours, and another more grey. I don’t have pics of them at the moment though. His belly is dark like him, no white.

 

[Cosima]

The dad looks like a gold tipped steel.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Lol! Sorry, Im only a year into this so don’t know the names. here’s a pic of the mom (Californian) and dad (Flemish/NZ cross). By peppered i meant he has all those colours peppered together. The coloured kits with him as the sire, they usually are pure black or with Vienna marks or like him but any of the three colours can be dominate. Like right now we have one more brown, yet all three colours, and another more grey. I don’t have pics of them at the moment though. His belly is dark like him, no white.

The pictures are very helpful! Yes, the sire seems to be a steel, aka gold-tipped steel. That color comes along with a gene for agouti, so that's probably how you ended up with a chestnut - the kit got the agouti gene but not the steel gene. From the top they can look fairly similar, but when you turn them over you discover that the steel has a dark belly, while the agouti has a white/cream belly.

Steel is a common color in Flemish Giants, although the variety that is bred for show is called "steel gray" and it is produced by the gene for agouti + the gene for steel + another gene for chinchilla, which removes the rusty color and leaves the rabbit looking salt-and-pepper rather than peppered with a mixture of black and brown.

By the way, the black babies could possibly be steels, too... either "self steel" (without the agouti gene); or with two copies of the steel gene, which is called a "supersteel." It would depend on whether or not the sire carries a self gene, or the cal doe carries steel. Both varieties look black, although you might find they develop some gold-tipped hairs around their shoulders or other hindquarters.

I'm not seeing vienna marks on the sire. Where are they?

 

[JG3]

The pictures are very helpful! Yes, the sire seems to be a steel, aka gold-tipped steel. That color comes along with a gene for agouti, so that's probably how you ended up with a chestnut - the kit got the agouti gene but not the steel gene. From the top they can look fairly similar, but when you turn them over you discover that the steel has a dark belly, while the agouti has a white/cream belly.

Steel is a common color in Flemish Giants, although the variety that is bred for show is called "steel gray" and it is produced by the gene for agouti + the gene for steel + another gene for chinchilla, which removes the rusty color and leaves the rabbit looking salt-and-pepper rather than peppered with a mixture of black and brown.

By the way, the black babies could possibly be steels, too... either "self steel" (without the agouti gene); or with two copies of the steel gene, which is called a "supersteel." It would depend on whether or not the sire carries a self gene, or the cal doe carries steel. Both varieties look black, although you might find they develop some gold-tipped hairs around their shoulders or other hindquarters.

I'm not seeing vienna marks on the sire. Where are they?

Wow! Thanks! that’s so informative!

The sire doesn’t have Vienna marks, but his kits often do. Typically the full black ones can have the white streak on top of their head.

Edit: We also have our first grey one in his litter with our NZ white doe. Now that you mention it, I’m going to look closer to see if there’s any rust colour, I can’t recall at the moment. But as far as I know, there’s not chinchilla in them.

 

[Alaska Satin]

The sire doesn’t have Vienna marks, but his kits often do. Typically the full black ones can have the white streak on top of their head.

So you would call the sire a Vienna Carrier (VC) and the kits with markings Vienna Marked (VM). If you're keeping track of pedigrees, that can be an important item to include. And yes, you can keep pedigrees on crossbreeds! It's a lot of fun, and a great way to learn about color inheritance (and other things).

Your buck would be listed as Flopsy (NZ/Flemish) and your doe as Mopsy (Californian), using their actual names, of course. You would also include their ear tattoo if they have one, their adult weight, and their variety (color/pattern). For the sire it would be recorded as "Steel (VC)" and for the doe it would be "Standard" (there's only one variety accepted in Californians and the doe looks normal, though you can have other point colors show up).

A note about the steel designation. Conventionally, in most breeds "Steel" means Black Gold-Tipped Steel. There are other colors of steel, so the base color and the tipping color can vary. A rabbit can have a base color of black, blue, chocolate or lilac, and it can have either gold tipping or silver tipping. Those colors are written out: for instance, a rabbit might be Blue Gold-Tipped Steel, or Chocolate Silver-Tipped Steel, etc.

Edit: We also have our first grey one in his litter with our NZ white doe. Now that you mention it, I’m going to look closer to see if there’s any rust colour, I can’t recall at the moment. But as far as I know, there’s not chinchilla in them.

The gene for chinchilla can hide for generations, especially if the rabbits are self (which Californians are), which prevents the chinchilla from looking banded.

Years ago I crossed a New Zealand White into my Satins, and discovered that I had had chinchilla hiding in my blue and black Satins for six generations! The NZW carried a gene for agouti that allowed the expression of the chinchilla color/pattern.

I'd love to see a photo of your gray kit. Sometimes chinchillas can start out with a little rustiness over the nape and/or back, but the reddish brown is never as extensive as the chestnuts, and it disappears as they molt into their adult coats.

 

[JG3]

So you would call the sire a Vienna Carrier (VC) and the kits with markings Vienna Marked (VM). If you're keeping track of pedigrees, that can be an important item to include. And yes, you can keep pedigrees on crossbreeds! It's a lot of fun, and a great way to learn about color inheritance (and other things).

Your buck would be listed as Flopsy (NZ/Flemish) and your doe as Mopsy (Californian), using their actual names, of course. You would also include their ear tattoo if they have one, their adult weight, and their variety (color/pattern). For the sire it would be recorded as "Steel (VC)" and for the doe it would be "Standard" (there's only one variety accepted in Californians and the doe looks normal, though you can have other point colors show up).

A note about the steel designation. Conventionally, in most breeds "Steel" means Black Gold-Tipped Steel. There are other colors of steel, so the base color and the tipping color can vary. A rabbit can have a base color of black, blue, chocolate or lilac, and it can have either gold tipping or silver tipping. Those colors are written out: for instance, a rabbit might be Blue Gold-Tipped Steel, or Chocolate Silver-Tipped Steel, etc.


The gene for chinchilla can hide for generations, especially if the rabbits are self (which Californians are), which prevents the chinchilla from looking banded.

Years ago I crossed a New Zealand White into my Satins, and discovered that I had had chinchilla hiding in my blue and black Satins for six generations! The NZW carried a gene for agouti that allowed the expression of the chinchilla color/pattern.

I'd love to see a photo of your gray kit. Sometimes chinchillas can start out with a little rustiness over the nape and/or back, but the reddish brown is never as extensive as the chestnuts, and it disappears as they molt into their adult coats.

Wow! Thanks for all this excellent info! Very helpful!

I haven’t been able to get a pic of the more grey kit yet but as soon as I can, I will! I’m curious if you think that gene may be in them or not!