What is hiding under her himi genes?

[Robochelle]

Beanie has had 3 litters now, and I thought I could tell her color but on closer inspection I'm not sure.

Her first litter was with an English spot, and was all En or otter coloring.
Her second was with an otter son, and produced more otters, some Himalayan, some black self, and one brown tort. Her third litter was an accident, and the father was a descendant. This one had several blacks, some Himalayan, a blue otter, and a lilac self.


I thought she was a blue at first, but if you look closely at her fur bands you can see that it's white at the root, blue in the middle and brown tips.
She hasn't produced a single agouti so she can't be one, but then how does she have these bands?

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Do you have their pedigree?

 

[Robochelle]

She doesn't have a pedigree, I can only find clues through her kits

 

[Alaska Satin]

It's really hard to tell what we're looking at in the photos, but it doesn't look like what you're describing at all...? It looks like dark roots and white tips. The ear shot looks suspiciously like a blue himi, but the other photos don't at all. It's hard to tell where on the rabbit we're looking in the other photos, but she surely doesn't look like a blue.
If you could post photos of the whole rabbit, and of her belly, her face, and of the rings you're talking about (blow into her fur and take the picture looking straight down), that would be helpful.
But given her offspring, she must be, or at least carry carry, otter/tan <at>, chocolate <b>, himi <ch>, dilute <d>, and non-extension <e>.
The non-extension could account for the weird ring/not-ring look, but again, it's really hard to tell from the current photos.
Also, just because she hasn't produced any agoutis doesn't *necessarily* mean she isn't agouti - genetic predictions are completely statistical so there's a possibility (admittedly, a vanishing possibility!) that an agouti carrying other alleles could produce no agoutis in three litters. (I have had a broken doe kindle 9 solids.; another broken doe produced 100% brokens when bred with a solid buck.)

 

[Robochelle]

The rings are only on the colored part of her-- she's a Himalayan, her belly is as white as everything but the points. Here's a better pic of the bands, I can only really show them on the ears because everywhere else th fur is too short and my finger covers up the shot

 

[judymac]

Does she have Himalayan red eyes, or dark eyes? If they're dark, she could be an ermine, which is chinchilla + fawn ee.

 

[Robochelle]

Red eyes. What confuses me is the banded color. If she's not agouti she shouldn't have bands, right? Also, it's brown tipped with a blue middle band, how does that even work? I thought the middle band could only be shades of red and yellow

 

[Alaska Satin]

Ah, I see - when you said she was a blue, you meant blue *pointed!*
The nose coloration looks like what happens to my cals during a molt, but what seem to be bands on the ear fur are pretty suspicious since they seem to have chestnut coloration in addition to the darker fur.
And himi can come in any of the coat types - agouti, tan, martin or self. If she's a non-extension color, that can mess with the undercolor.
But I think it could still be a new coat coming in. How old is she?

 

[Robochelle]

She's 1.5 years. Could non extension cause the blue middle band? Could she be a chocolate with non extension?

Other possibilities:

Could the steel gene cause brown tips instead of gold/silver? ( thus allowing the middle band to be dilute without diluting the tan tip)

The pattern of otters she has mothered doesn't have brown ears but is it possible that the color banding is from an otter pattern?

 

[Robochelle]

What are the chances that she -has- had agouti babies, but they all had the Himalayan color hiding it? Take a look at her daughter

 

[eco2pia]

The pattern of otters she has mothered doesn't have brown ears but is it possible that the color banding is from an otter pattern?

I was wondering how otter + himi would present...It seems to me that some of the "tort" colors are shadings of blue and tan, and the pattern of himi is created by a heat sensitive protein, that can shift the color on the points lighter or darker based on the environmental temperatures, and also an individual's hormonal state (intact adult vs surgically sterile or juvenile) I feel like that could cause apparent bands maybe? But this is outside my area for sure! I think @Alaska Satin has given you the best answer possible.

 

[Alaska Satin]

What are the chances that she -has- had agouti babies, but they all had the Himalayan color hiding it? Take a look at her daughter

Yes! That daughter definitely could be an agouti himi! Not only does the nose look agouti, but she's got the ear lacing/pale inner ear of an agouti. If I saw the ears alone in that single picture, I might guess torted (non-extension) otter, but that nose surely looks agouti - maybe chocolate agouti. Chocolate agouti would match up with what looks like chocolate lacing on the ears, too. What color was her sire?
So anyway that suggests that Beanie is actually an agouti. Otters don't have rings at all - they're basically self rabbits with agouti markings - so if she produced agoutis, otters and selfs she could either be <Aat> or <Aa>. But as to her specific color - the pictures are pretty hard to decipher. In some photos she looks like she has black, in others blue, in some she looks like she has pearly parts and in others it looks fawn...
Phenotypically, I would not call her lilac or chocolate, and I think you can rule out self given her tan bands, and rule out chin as well given the evidence of both the tan bands and the himi markings. So that leaves either chestnut (black agouti) or its dilute, opal (blue agouti). Given that you originally thought she was a blue, we'll go with opal. She's obviously himi and since she's never produce a REW with any of her offspring, that suggests that she's homozygous for himi.
Putting that together with her offspring's colors, you might come up with:
<Aat Bb chch dd Ee> opal himi carrying tan(otter), chocolate and non-extension
<Aa Bb chch dd Ee> opal himi carrying self, chocolate and non-extension
But it's pretty tricky when all you have are the shorter-furred points to go on!

 

[Robochelle]

Cool! I'd say she is carrying self, as her mates have been otters or English spot (which can easily carry or hide otter) looks like I have my answer, thanks everyone!