What is doable in your perfect rabbit software? I've been looking at software, but I've decided to make my own.

[kusanar314]

@kusanar314 Just to make sure I understand exactly what you mean. You are saying for the group gains to be an average weekly gain for the entire litter? Ex: Bun1 averaged 5 oz and Bun2 averaged 3 oz in a specific week, the group gain would be the average of 4 oz for that week.

No, for each rabbit, so let's say that you weigh all 8 kits in a litter (using entirely hypothetical numbers as I don't breed yet and don't know exactly realistic numbers) and you weight them sometime in the first week they are alive, this is the starting weight and let's say they are 4 oz, then you weigh next week and they are 8 oz, then the 3rd week they are 12 oz, they are gaining 4 oz per week right now, then later on, let's say around 8-10 weeks suddenly they stop gaining 4 oz per week and instead drop to 1 oz per week. You can decide to cull/harvest at that point (based on data) or let them go longer. Then later, when you have another litter that follows closely to the same weights, you would be able to expect that they would also drop off weight gains at roughly the same time and make the decision to harvest now rather than feeding for another week for only 1 oz more live weight.

You could maybe even tie this into carcass weight so you could see if they were harvested at this time following this growth pattern, you got x percentage of meat but if you waited that extra week that extra ounce is entirely meat and not any bone and maybe it IS worth waiting after all.

Just thinking about things that I will be trying to track when I start breeding.

 

[KelleyBee]

I was thinking this would be annoying with just one litter, I can't imagine doing it with hundreds of kits! And time consuming...



So, I've compiled two Information Lists I would include for rabbits and pairings. Notes are in () to explain a bit further so hopefully nobody is confused about what is written:

Rabbit Information: (Information about single rabbit)​

Quick Look Info:​

Ear Tag #: ABCD# (Write it however your system works)
Sex: M or F (Will change color and/or add or to end of name)
Birth weight: lb.0, lb oz, kg, g (Choose which one you want, lb.0 just means something like 9.5 lbs instead of lbs and oz)
Current weight: lb.0, lb oz, kg, g (Choose which one you want)
Average Daily Gain: lb.0/day, lb oz/day, kg/day, g/day (Know how fast your babies are growing)
Cull: Y or N, Selection of Reasons, notes for reason (Selection of reasons for the internal programming to add it to different lists and lead to information like knowing if the mother and father are not a good pairing)
Genetics: A, B, C, D, E, W, V, En, Du, Si (Fills out as much genetics as it can automatically, then lets you fill in more)
Medical Issues: Hereditary or Not Hereditary, with notes (Hereditary lets the programming know if the mother and father are not a good pairing)

Body Composition:​

Malocclusion: Y or N, Front Teeth, Back Teeth, Both (Yes or No, where is it)
Standard of Perfection: Y or N, with notes
Ears: 1 2 3 4 5 (Based on 5 star system, 1 is bad, 5 is great, may allow for a points system in the programming to know if it is an automatic cull based on your criteria)
Eyes: 1 2 3 4 5
Coat: 1 2 3 4 5
Hips: 1 2 3 4 5
Nails: 1 2 3 4 5
Rib Cage: 1 2 3 4 5
Shoulders: 1 2 3 4 5
Loins: 1 2 3 4 5
Hindquarters: 1 2 3 4 5
Peak: 1 2 3 4 5
Knees: 1 2 3 4 5
Genital Health: 1 2 3 4 5

Family Information:​

Mother: Ear #
Father: Ear #
Siblings: Ear #, Ear #, Ear #, etc.
Pedigree: Button to View
Percent Inbred: % (For your knowledge)

Outcome:​

Status: Cull, Kept for Breeding, Meat, Sold, Died, Killed, Unknown, Stillborn, with notes (For programming to know the outcome and can lead to information like knowing if mother and father make good pairing)
Meat:
Butcher Weight: # (Last Weighing before butcher)
Carcass Weight with Head and Organs and Bones: # (I know people weigh with different amounts of the animal, so you can choose which level you measure at)
Carcass Weight with Organs and Bones: #
Carcass Weight with Bones: #
Carcass Weight Meat Only: #
Percent Yield HOB: CW HOB/BW = % (So you know your live to butchered %)
Percent Yield OB: CW OB/BW = %
Percent Yield B: CW B/BW = %
Percent Yield MO: CW MO/BW = %
Sold:
$ Sold for: $##.## (Amount you sold your animal for)

Other Information: (This I added after writing the Rabbit Pairing Information below so the same information ones below will have notes, not these)​

Rabbits bred to: Ear #, Ear #, etc. (List of Ear Tag #s the animal has been bred to)
Times Bred: # (This one has a double in RPI below, but this one would be every time the doe/buck has been bred and in RPI it would be just for the pairing listed)
Miscarriages: #, Miscarriages #/Times Bred %
Times Pregnancy Took: #, Times Pregnant #/Times Bred # = %
Average Litter Size: #, Babies/Times Birthed (Average litter size for the animal)

Rabbit Pairing Information: (Information about a breeding pair)​

Basic Information:​

Mother: Ear #
Father: Ear #
Inbreeding Percent: % (How much would the babies be inbred?)
Reason for Pairing: To Bring Out a Trait, For Funsies, Other Reasons, with notes (Allows you to say why you are breeding the two, and figure out if the breeding does do what you want it to do)
Possible Baby Genetics: 25% = X, 25% = Y, 25% = Z, 25% = Q, A, B, C, D, E, W, V, En, Du, Si from Punnett Square (Gives you the genetic outcomes of the babies based on the parents' genetics)

Information About Previous Pairings/Babies:​

Times Bred: # (How many times you have bred them)
Times Pregnant: #, Pregnant/Bred = % (How many times the doe became pregnant, percent of breedings)
Times Birthed: #, Birthed/Bred = %, Birthed/Pregnant = % (Number of times the doe has given birth, births divided by total breedings percentage, births divided by time pregnant percentage)
Times Miscarried: #, Miscarried #/Pregnant # = %, Miscarried #/Bred # = % (Number of times the doe has miscarried, Miscarriages divided by times pregnant percentage, miscarriages divided by times bred percentage)
Total Babies: #
Total Babies Alive to Market: #, TBAM #/Total Babies # = % (Babies that lived to market day, and as a percentage of total babies)
Average #/Litter: Babies/Times Birthed = # (Average litter size for this pairing)
Percent Babies with Malocclusion: %
Percent Babies meeting Standard of Perfection: %
Percent Male Babies: %
Percent Female Babies: %
Baby Coloring: % Color 1, % Color 2, etc. (Maybe comparison with how it matches the Punnett Square)
Babies Kept: #, Babies Kept/Total Babies Alive to Market = %
Babies Culled: #, Babies Culled/TBAM = %
Babies with good Body Composition: #, BGBM/TBAM = %
Average Daily Gain of Babies: ADG # of all Babies/TBAM = %
Hereditary Issues with Babies: notes (Might just be a notes section to write what the issues are or I would need a list of hereditary issues to add that can be a selection for the programming to figure out percentages and such for each hereditary issue)

Some way to figure out automagically if it is a good pairing… (Some ideas)​

1. Malocclusion amount too high (or other body composition issue)
2. Amount of SOP babies is too low (based on a user level limit)
3. TBAM #/Total Babies # = low %
4. Genetics are not what you want
5. Too many hereditary issues
6. Does not meet meat rabbit needs
7. other issues with babies that mark it as a bad pairing

I'm hoping all this information will be recordable and visible and hopefully I'll be able to program in plenty of results automatically so there will be little need to manually and painstakingly find the results yourself, unless the information is in the notes section and not something the programming can read.

Is there any more information you would want recordable on the rabbits or pairings, or another section/grouping of information I should add? Or Information Lists about something? Like an Overall Information List that has all data compiled from rabbits into one so you can see something like your Total Rabbits Sold and maybe a yearly comparison to see if you're getting better results. I've only planned out these two from this comment, and, no doubt, there will be more lists and information, just looking to see what ones you all would find useful.

You've covered much of what I put on my paper ledgers. I just butchered this week and was thinking how much I would love to be able to key into my program the following: Age at date of butcher, Live Weight, Dressed Weight (I include meat, bones, liver, kidney, heart, nothing else) Head, feet and tail are not included in my dress weight. Then I capture the percentage of carcass yield to determine meat grade: Prime average 57.7%; Choice average 55.9%; and Commercial average 52.2%. These percentages are obtained by dividing the Dressed weight by the Live weight. This type of data can be used to know which mating pairs are best for the dinner table. I obtained this percentages info from the Rabbit Production book by Cheeke, Lukefahr, Patton and McNitt, 6th Edition, pages 434 and 435.

 

[KelleyBee]

This looks amazing! I'd love to be a beta tester!

One thing that caught my eye is the "birth weight," as I don't know if many folks weigh kits at birth. Maybe have "Starting weight" or something instead, which would be whatever the first weight is, and calculate average daily weight gain from there? Weekly average gain might be nice, too.

Great job so far!

I always weigh within 24 hours of birth. If the weight is gathered within the first 24 hours, I count it as DOB. Then I weigh daily for the first week to be sure all are being fed.

 

[Kaizarhiede]

No, for each rabbit, so let's say that you weigh all 8 kits in a litter (using entirely hypothetical numbers as I don't breed yet and don't know exactly realistic numbers) and you weight them sometime in the first week they are alive, this is the starting weight and let's say they are 4 oz, then you weigh next week and they are 8 oz, then the 3rd week they are 12 oz, they are gaining 4 oz per week right now, then later on, let's say around 8-10 weeks suddenly they stop gaining 4 oz per week and instead drop to 1 oz per week. You can decide to cull/harvest at that point (based on data) or let them go longer. Then later, when you have another litter that follows closely to the same weights, you would be able to expect that they would also drop off weight gains at roughly the same time and make the decision to harvest now rather than feeding for another week for only 1 oz more live weight.

So, you see the individual weight of each rabbit in a litter and it focuses on the weekly gain of each rabbit so you can see when one stops gaining as well to find "the best" time to cull each rabbit. And then in the future, if you see a similar trend is happening you'll be a bit more prepared for "the best" time to cull.

You could maybe even tie this into carcass weight so you could see if they were harvested at this time following this growth pattern, you got x percentage of meat but if you waited that extra week that extra ounce is entirely meat and not any bone and maybe it IS worth waiting after all.

Having a bone-in weight vs just meat rate would probably be quite beneficial to see if your bone:meat ratio is good.

I would love to be able to key into my program the following: Age at date of butcher, Live Weight, Dressed Weight (I include meat, bones, liver, kidney, heart, nothing else) Head, feet and tail are not included in my dress weight.

I've added them to the list and was thinking for the dressed weight, maybe it could be some check boxes for each thing included in the weighing.

Then I capture the percentage of carcass yield to determine meat grade: Prime average 57.7%; Choice average 55.9%; and Commercial average 52.2%. These percentages are obtained by dividing the Dressed weight by the Live weight. This type of data can be used to know which mating pairs are best for the dinner table. I obtained this percentages info from the Rabbit Production book by Cheeke, Lukefahr, Patton and McNitt, 6th Edition, pages 434 and 435.

Are those percentages based just on meat yield? Or are they bone-in/organs included?



I was also thinking, babies don't necessarily have ear #s and they might never get one, so they'll probably need some sort of naming system not based on ear #s. And include how old they were when weaned and information on how good the mother was. Stuff like that.

 

[KelleyBee]

Are those percentages based just on meat yield? Or are they bone-in/organs included?



I was also thinking, babies don't necessarily have ear #s and they might never get one, so they'll probably need some sort of naming system not based on ear #s. And include how old they were when weaned and information on how good the mother was. Stuff like that.

I have attached the pages in the book I've mentioned before that should help to answer your question. How a person preps the rabbit before butcher can affect the percentages (i.e., no food last 24 hours vs feeding as usual) as well as what is weighed after dressing. For me, I weigh all useable parts. I keep fat, bones and what I personally see as edible organs, therefore those items are included in my dressed weight along with the meat. Why? Because I eat the meat, kidneys, liver and heart. After a meal, I save all bones to the freezer and eventually I make bone broth for drinking and for use in recipes, all fat I save to render into cooking fat for use when any recipe calls for oils or lard or butters, etc. I prefer using the natural animal fats wherever possible. So, all of those items have value to me. I do not include the lungs, although I keep them, dehydrate them, lightly toast them and then feed to my dog as a treat.

With regards to the babies receiving IDS, all litters receive an overall litter ID. In the Kintrax/Animal Breeder software, a mating either produces a litter or not. If it does produce a litter, then I have the option to tell the software how many kits were born, and then I tell the software to generate individual records for each kit. At this step is where one then can insert a litter ID (name) and that ID is attached to each individual record created. Then once each kit has an individual record, I then can go in and assign an individual letter appended to the litter ID that identifies that particular kit from all others.

For instance, the litter ID could be: MD07 and all kits born to that litter receive that ID in the name field of the individual record the software automatically produces for them when I ask it to do so. Then, I open each individual record of each kit from the MD07 litter and assign each kit an additional letter. So, if this particular litter has 8 kits, the following IDs for each kit might end up looking like: MD01A; MD07B, MD07C, MD07D, MD07J, MD07M, MD07Q. That last letter becomes my main identifier of who is who within a particular litter. By 2 weeks old, the ears are usually large enough that I can begin writing just the last letter in and on the ears of each kit, so I know who is who at a glance. I use sharpie, but really want something that will last longer. A kit never gets a permanent tattoo unless it is sold or kept for my breeding program.

Of course, all of this is predicated upon how involved in the nitty gritty of rabbit production one wants to be. I am a bit of a data nerd, so keeping detailed records is a fascinating thing for me.

 

[Kaizarhiede]

My dog gets to enjoy those organ treats as well! I haven't quite been able to bring myself to eating animal organs, yet. I just know it won't go to waste giving it to the dog, so I don't feel bad about not eating them and she absolutely loves her treats, so it makes me happy knowing she has a healthy, non-processed treat.

Those pages don't state what they consider to be used for getting their percentages, oh well.

For instance, the litter ID could be: MD07 and all kits born to that litter receive that ID in the name field of the individual record the software automatically produces for them when I ask it to do so. Then, I open each individual record of each kit from the MD07 litter and assign each kit an additional letter. So, if this particular litter has 8 kits, the following IDs for each kit might end up looking like: MD01A; MD07B, MD07C, MD07D, MD07J, MD07M, MD07Q. That last letter becomes my main identifier of who is who within a particular litter. By 2 weeks old, the ears are usually large enough that I can begin writing just the last letter in and on the ears of each kit, so I know who is who at a glance. I use sharpie, but really want something that will last longer. A kit never gets a permanent tattoo unless it is sold or kept for my breeding program.

I like how that works. I currently use a rainbow of sharpies on their ears, so mine are based on colors currently. That system could work with the International Year Letter Codes:

*I O Q and V are not used
F 2018
G 2019
H 2020
J 2021
K 2022
L 2023
M 2024
N 2025
P 2026
R 2027
S 2028
T 2029

and the Future Contracts month codes:

F January
G February
H March
J April
K May
M June
N July
Q August
U September
V October
X November
Z December
exclude letters (A, B, C, D, E, I, L, O, P, R, S, T, W, Y) that could potentially be confused with numbers (B/8, I/1, O/0, S/5, T/7), assigned letters (O/Q, U/V), existing contracts (W/Wheat, S/Soybeans), or other actions (A/Ask, B/Bid, C/Call, P/Put).

So the first litter of 2022 in January is KF01 and I'm thinking for the babies having it be -A, so it's a little easier to quickly glance and see the separated letter.

I'm definitely also a data nerd, that's why I'm making my own software!

 

[carolsembellishments]

I love your "star" system for culling. You have thought of some great, really practical advantages that I really like. I am currently using Evans and I like it. However, I am frustrated by the inability to compare the show records (with judges comments) of two or more animals. I raised for meat for years and only recently started showing and find myself having to re-key into a spreadsheet all the records to make it sortable. It would be nice to compare show records of multiple does or bucks over multiple shows.

 

[KelleyBee]

My dog gets to enjoy those organ treats as well! I haven't quite been able to bring myself to eating animal organs, yet. I just know it won't go to waste giving it to the dog, so I don't feel bad about not eating them and she absolutely loves her treats, so it makes me happy knowing she has a healthy, non-processed treat.

Those pages don't state what they consider to be used for getting their percentages, oh well.



I like how that works. I currently use a rainbow of sharpies on their ears, so mine are based on colors currently. That system could work with the International Year Letter Codes:

*I O Q and V are not used
F 2018
G 2019
H 2020
J 2021
K 2022
L 2023
M 2024
N 2025
P 2026
R 2027
S 2028
T 2029

and the Future Contracts month codes:

F January
G February
H March
J April
K May
M June
N July
Q August
U September
V October
X November
Z December
exclude letters (A, B, C, D, E, I, L, O, P, R, S, T, W, Y) that could potentially be confused with numbers (B/8, I/1, O/0, S/5, T/7), assigned letters (O/Q, U/V), existing contracts (W/Wheat, S/Soybeans), or other actions (A/Ask, B/Bid, C/Call, P/Put).

So the first litter of 2022 in January is KF01 and I'm thinking for the babies having it be -A, so it's a little easier to quickly glance and see the separated letter.

I'm definitely also a data nerd, that's why I'm making my own software!

Boy, that's go my head spinning. My system works like this:

How to read the Kit ID/Ear Tattoo:

KB=KelleyBee

3rd Letter = First Initial From Name of Sire

4th Letter = First Initial From Name of Dam

Set of Numbers = litter number of mating pair (sire & dam)

Last Letter = specific kit identifier within the litter

 

[Kaizarhiede]

I love your "star" system for culling. You have thought of some great, really practical advantages that I really like. I am currently using Evans and I like it. However, I am frustrated by the inability to compare the show records (with judges comments) of two or more animals. I raised for meat for years and only recently started showing and find myself having to re-key into a spreadsheet all the records to make it sortable. It would be nice to compare show records of multiple does or bucks over multiple shows.

@carolsembellishments I have no experience whatsoever with showing. Would you be able to upload a judging so I can see it (unless that's against rules or something with showing rabbits) and explain a bit, please? And explain what you want to compare between rabbits? That way I'll be able to figure out how I would be able to put that into the software.

Boy, that's go my head spinning. My system works like this:

How to read the Kit ID/Ear Tattoo:

KB=KelleyBee

3rd Letter = First Initial From Name of Sire

4th Letter = First Initial From Name of Dam

Set of Numbers = litter number of mating pair (sire & dam)

Last Letter = specific kit identifier within the litter

Ah, that makes sense. I feel like eventually you'd run into the issue of having an ID be the same for two litters. KBJJ01A could be from Jack and Jill's first litter or John and Judy's.

For the one I suggested, you wouldn't run into that issue for 23 years, I believe.

I do like having the breeder/business initials at the front, though. Marks that it came from your rabbits.

 

[KelleyBee]

@carolsembellishments I have no experience whatsoever with showing. Would you be able to upload a judging so I can see it (unless that's against rules or something with showing rabbits) and explain a bit, please? And explain what you want to compare between rabbits? That way I'll be able to figure out how I would be able to put that into the software.



Ah, that makes sense. I feel like eventually you'd run into the issue of having an ID be the same for two litters. KBJJ01A could be from Jack and Jill's first litter or John and Judy's.

For the one I suggested, you wouldn't run into that issue for 23 years, I believe.

I do like having the breeder/business initials at the front, though. Marks that it came from your rabbits.

To avoid such, I don't use the first letter of a name more than once. I have only one rabbit whose name begins with A, only one whose name begins with B, and so on. If I were ever to have a need to begin at the beginning of the alphabet again, then I would probably insert a 2 after the repeated initial. Therefore, today's A mating would look like KBMA03T and become KBMA203T. But frankly, at my age I don't think I will be going thru 26 breeders before this chapter of my life comes to an end.... although one does never know!

 

[carolsembellishments]

Ok, so this is a comment card that you receive from the judge (hopefully filled out) on the day of the show.

 

[carolsembellishments]

This particular card (previous post) is actually my first show. The Red ink Fiona I wrote on there to help keep my head straight. It has the rabbits ear#, the show address, and which show it is, A, B, or C (3 shows in one day). It shows how many rabbits and exhibitors in the class, and what your placing is. It also shows what the judges evaluation of your animal is: Fiona has many "good" qualities, but only "fair" hindquarters.
I need to tell you that I raised rabbits for meat as a kid, like 40-50 years ago, and recently got rabbits again (Californians) during the covid lockdown. I have never shown rabbits before. When my husband retired, it was suggested that we show rabbits. Raising to someone else's standards has been...challenging...for me. I took an entire litter of does (yes, I was blessed) to Hollister, and used those comment cards from 3 different judges to help decide my culling. Being able to compare comments from multiple animals would be a blessing. Also, comparing comments from different shows over time would help. Being able to export to a spreadsheet without having to retype the info would be awesome.
I of course consider more than just what the judge says: it doesn't matter how pretty it is, it's purpose is to produce meat, so all the matters you have discussed in this thread are important to me. I take my laptop out to the bunny barn on evaluation day and assess my buck, does, breeding possibilities and check the judges comments to help me compare to what I am seeing in my animal. It must be working, since that first show we have had several animals win legs at the shows we have gone to. I just would like managing the data to be a little easier and less time consuming.
Thank you so much for responding! You have had so many responses you must feel a little overwhelmed!

 

[Kaizarhiede]

It sure is a bit overwhelming and the fact that I'm gonna be learning how to make the program as I make it makes me feel a little bad that I won't be able to share it with everyone as soon as I could if I knew how to make everything, but that's how it is.

The comment card does kinda follow that 5 star system I was thinking of, so that seems like it would work well since the show world is already doing that. And there's nothing too crazy information-wise on the cards, so it seems it should be relatively easy to implement. And once I'm able to get rabbits able to be compared, I'm sure the cards won't be too different.

 

[GreenAcresHomestead]

As a senior raising meat rabbits on our little homestead if you really really do use any Beta testers put us down too.

 

[Kaizarhiede]

As a senior raising meat rabbits on our little homestead if you really really do use any Beta testers put us down too.

Will do!